51 replies to this topic

[dice]

I'm reading in my Sun Times...

i thought conservatives read the trib. doing opposition research?

mmmmmm...abortion doughnuts

[Fender]

Dude, FOCA does not eliminate the conscience clause. That's just what FOX et. al. are frothing at the mouth about this week.

On this past Sunday at Mass there was a sermon which dealt entirely with the Freedom of Choice Act --FOCA -- we were encouraged to send postcards (which were in the church) to our state's elected officials to ask them to not support FOCA.

Among the literature that was provided it stated that FOCA would "Run roughshod over the conscience rights of physicians, nurses, and hospitals, that oppose abortion on religious, moral, or ethical grounds". -- "Force American taxpayers to fund abortions". --"Force every state to allow partial birth abortions".

Would Catholic hospitals have to close if they refused to comply with FOCA?

[ParticleHustler]

Dude, FOCA does not eliminate the conscience clause. That's just what FOX et. al. are frothing at the mouth about this week.

On this past Sunday at Mass there was a sermon which dealt entirely with the Freedom of Choice Act --FOCA -- we were encouraged to send postcards (which were in the church) to our state's elected officials to ask them to not support FOCA.

Among the literature that was provided it stated that FOCA would "Run roughshod over the conscience rights of physicians, nurses, and hospitals, that oppose abortion on religious, moral, or ethical grounds". -- "Force American taxpayers to fund abortions". --"Force every state to allow partial birth abortions".

Would Catholic hospitals have to close if they refused to comply with FOCA?

This is off-topic and goes back to some discussions we had back when the Rev. Wright flap was going on, but it still amazes me that people attend churches where this kind of blatant political discourse occurs. I have never attended a church service where something even remotely close to this goes on. It is so completely foreign to me that I have a hard time believing it exists, although it obviously does. If I sat through a "sermon" like this, I would run so far away from that church they'd never see me around town again. And it really has nothing to do with the topic, per se, just the idea that a church is out there pushing people to take specific action on a particular political issue...that's not my idea of what a church is supposed to be about.

Anyway, carry on.

[Fender]

Dude, FOCA does not eliminate the conscience clause. That's just what FOX et. al. are frothing at the mouth about this week.

On this past Sunday at Mass there was a sermon which dealt entirely with the Freedom of Choice Act --FOCA -- we were encouraged to send postcards (which were in the church) to our state's elected officials to ask them to not support FOCA.

Among the literature that was provided it stated that FOCA would "Run roughshod over the conscience rights of physicians, nurses, and hospitals, that oppose abortion on religious, moral, or ethical grounds". -- "Force American taxpayers to fund abortions". --"Force every state to allow partial birth abortions".

Would Catholic hospitals have to close if they refused to comply with FOCA?

This is off-topic and goes back to some discussions we had back when the Rev. Wright flap was going on, but it still amazes me that people attend churches where this kind of blatant political discourse occurs. I have never attended a church service where something even remotely close to this goes on. It is so completely foreign to me that I have a hard time believing it exists, although it obviously does. If I sat through a "sermon" like this, I would run so far away from that church they'd never see me around town again. And it really has nothing to do with the topic, per se, just the idea that a church is out there pushing people to take specific action on a particular political issue...that's not my idea of what a church is supposed to be about.

Anyway, carry on.

I think that the sermon was based on the "sanctity of life" belief that Catholics have. I'm not an expert on other Christian denominations, but I think it's safe to say that most would express a belief that we are created in the image and likeness of God -- Catholics say that we are temples of the Holy Spirit -- in other words there is a part of us that contains God ( the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ) --

Besides the sanctity of life belief, there is the Commandment "Thou Shall Not Kill"; and Catholics and other denominations have interpreted this to mean that all life should be protected and valued -- including that which is developing inside the womb. --

To a lot of people protecting the life inside the womb isn't just a political issue; it has a moral resonance which far overwhelms any political considerations. Any Church isn't supposed to endorse a particular candidate, but they can and should make their members aware of the moral implications of the laws which will affect them -- and FOCA

[Fender]

Dude, FOCA does not eliminate the conscience clause. That's just what FOX et. al. are frothing at the mouth about this week.

On this past Sunday at Mass there was a sermon which dealt entirely with the Freedom of Choice Act --FOCA -- we were encouraged to send postcards (which were in the church) to our state's elected officials to ask them to not support FOCA.

Among the literature that was provided it stated that FOCA would "Run roughshod over the conscience rights of physicians, nurses, and hospitals, that oppose abortion on religious, moral, or ethical grounds". -- "Force American taxpayers to fund abortions". --"Force every state to allow partial birth abortions".

Would Catholic hospitals have to close if they refused to comply with FOCA?

This is off-topic and goes back to some discussions we had back when the Rev. Wright flap was going on, but it still amazes me that people attend churches where this kind of blatant political discourse occurs. I have never attended a church service where something even remotely close to this goes on. It is so completely foreign to me that I have a hard time believing it exists, although it obviously does. If I sat through a "sermon" like this, I would run so far away from that church they'd never see me around town again. And it really has nothing to do with the topic, per se, just the idea that a church is out there pushing people to take specific action on a particular political issue...that's not my idea of what a church is supposed to be about.

Anyway, carry on.

I think that the sermon was based on the "sanctity of life" belief that Catholics have. I'm not an expert on other Christian denominations, but I think it's safe to say that most would express a belief that we are created in the image and likeness of God -- Catholics say that we are temples of the Holy Spirit -- in other words there is a part of us that contains God ( the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ) --
If we are able to see that part of us in each other then we would naturally love and respect each other more.

Besides the sanctity of life belief, there is the Commandment "Thou Shall Not Kill"; and Catholics and other denominations have interpreted this to mean that all life should be protected and valued -- including that which is developing inside the womb. --

To a lot of people protecting the life inside the womb isn't just a political issue; it has a moral resonance which far overwhelms any political considerations. Any Church isn't supposed to endorse a particular candidate, but they can and should make their members aware of the moral implications of a law like FOCA ---- FOCA is such a radical law that the Church has decided to try to actively defeat it -- not because it's against the Churche's political position, but because it violates the moral order.

P.S. -- I heard on the radio recently that those who support "mercy killing" would now like to be known as supporting "compassionate choices".

[More Drama]

I love when my cousins send out bonkerz religious emails to the whole family and still end them with "GO BLACKHAWKS!!!!"

[velocity]

Dude, FOCA does not eliminate the conscience clause. That's just what FOX et. al. are frothing at the mouth about this week.

On this past Sunday at Mass there was a sermon which dealt entirely with the Freedom of Choice Act --FOCA -- we were encouraged to send postcards (which were in the church) to our state's elected officials to ask them to not support FOCA.

Among the literature that was provided it stated that FOCA would "Run roughshod over the conscience rights of physicians, nurses, and hospitals, that oppose abortion on religious, moral, or ethical grounds". -- "Force American taxpayers to fund abortions". --"Force every state to allow partial birth abortions".

Would Catholic hospitals have to close if they refused to comply with FOCA?

This is off-topic and goes back to some discussions we had back when the Rev. Wright flap was going on, but it still amazes me that people attend churches where this kind of blatant political discourse occurs. I have never attended a church service where something even remotely close to this goes on. It is so completely foreign to me that I have a hard time believing it exists, although it obviously does. If I sat through a "sermon" like this, I would run so far away from that church they'd never see me around town again. And it really has nothing to do with the topic, per se, just the idea that a church is out there pushing people to take specific action on a particular political issue...that's not my idea of what a church is supposed to be about.

Anyway, carry on.

I think that the sermon was based on the "sanctity of life" belief that Catholics have. I'm not an expert on other Christian denominations, but I think it's safe to say that most would express a belief that we are created in the image and likeness of God -- Catholics say that we are temples of the Holy Spirit -- in other words there is a part of us that contains God ( the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ) --

Besides the sanctity of life belief, there is the Commandment "Thou Shall Not Kill"; and Catholics and other denominations have interpreted this to mean that all life should be protected and valued -- including that which is developing inside the womb. --

To a lot of people protecting the life inside the womb isn't just a political issue; it has a moral resonance which far overwhelms any political considerations. Any Church isn't supposed to endorse a particular candidate, but they can and should make their members aware of the moral implications of the laws which will affect them -- and FOCA

How many postcards does your church send out every week to abolish the death penalty?

[Chronodiggity]

as a staunch pro-choicer, can we please stop with the fallacy of saying that being pro-life and pro-death penalty should somehow be impossible. it is possible to believe that their is a sanctity of innocent "life" that cannot protect itself and also believe that people can forfeit the sanctity of their own life by committing heinous crimes. stupid, stupid argument.

[Mitchell]

How does the Catholic Church feel about the likes of Paul Jennings Hill?

[newspeak]

as a staunch pro-choicer, can we please stop with the fallacy of saying that being pro-life and pro-death penalty should somehow be impossible. it is possible to believe that their is a sanctity of innocent "life" that cannot protect itself and also believe that people can forfeit the sanctity of their own life by committing heinous crimes.

stupid, stupid argument.

No. Since the poster was asking about church literature and the backbone of the pro-life movement is predominantly christian/religious they should (in theory) be as anti-death penalty as they are pro-life. It is not 'impossible' to be pro-life/pro-death penalty but in terms of christian faiths it is contradictory and indicates a misunderstanding of their own messages.

If I were to be particularly pedantic I would also say that christians that invoke the bible/god in their pro-life arguments would be contradicting themselves if they were to declare unborn babies "innocent life".

Edited by newspeak, 04 February 2009 - 07:30 AM.

[ParticleHustler]

Dude, FOCA does not eliminate the conscience clause. That's just what FOX et. al. are frothing at the mouth about this week.

On this past Sunday at Mass there was a sermon which dealt entirely with the Freedom of Choice Act --FOCA -- we were encouraged to send postcards (which were in the church) to our state's elected officials to ask them to not support FOCA.

Among the literature that was provided it stated that FOCA would "Run roughshod over the conscience rights of physicians, nurses, and hospitals, that oppose abortion on religious, moral, or ethical grounds". -- "Force American taxpayers to fund abortions". --"Force every state to allow partial birth abortions".

Would Catholic hospitals have to close if they refused to comply with FOCA?

This is off-topic and goes back to some discussions we had back when the Rev. Wright flap was going on, but it still amazes me that people attend churches where this kind of blatant political discourse occurs. I have never attended a church service where something even remotely close to this goes on. It is so completely foreign to me that I have a hard time believing it exists, although it obviously does. If I sat through a "sermon" like this, I would run so far away from that church they'd never see me around town again. And it really has nothing to do with the topic, per se, just the idea that a church is out there pushing people to take specific action on a particular political issue...that's not my idea of what a church is supposed to be about.

Anyway, carry on.

I think that the sermon was based on the "sanctity of life" belief that Catholics have. I'm not an expert on other Christian denominations, but I think it's safe to say that most would express a belief that we are created in the image and likeness of God -- Catholics say that we are temples of the Holy Spirit -- in other words there is a part of us that contains God ( the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ) --

Besides the sanctity of life belief, there is the Commandment "Thou Shall Not Kill"; and Catholics and other denominations have interpreted this to mean that all life should be protected and valued -- including that which is developing inside the womb. --

To a lot of people protecting the life inside the womb isn't just a political issue; it has a moral resonance which far overwhelms any political considerations. Any Church isn't supposed to endorse a particular candidate, but they can and should make their members aware of the moral implications of the laws which will affect them -- and FOCA

I guess I just disagree about the role of church in my life. I've never sat through a sermon that discusses an inherently political topic such as abortion in any great detail. There are references to the "sanctity of life" thing, sure, but it is benign and indirect, and never have I heard a sermon that was all about what I should be doing on a particular issue, in specific reference to legislation or anything remotely political. And I don't want to hear such a sermon, and don't think it's appropriate. That's not what I go to church for. I don't look to the church to shame me morally into taking political positions on legislation, and I would not want to attend a church that does such a thing.

[Duff.]

I'm not religious and am often mistrustful where religion decides to get political, but I feel a church needs to be able to expand outside its own doors. I find getting involved in a particular piece of legislation through letterwriting etc is preferrable to going to bat for a particular candidate or extorting political leaders on the basis of one issue.

[Duff.]

as a staunch pro-choicer, can we please stop with the fallacy of saying that being pro-life and pro-death penalty should somehow be impossible. it is possible to believe that their is a sanctity of innocent "life" that cannot protect itself and also believe that people can forfeit the sanctity of their own life by committing heinous crimes.

stupid, stupid argument.

When people arrogantly throw around terms like "culture of life," it's appropriate to break out a mirror.

[6ome 9irl]

Most of the Catholic Church is pro-life and anti-death penalty. See: Catholic Social Teachings, and Dorothy Day. I'm down with that.

[pong]

I consider myself a staunch Pro-Life person and I would never condone abortion in my personal life (experience with this one). It's a hideous thing to me. But, I can't help but think about the world at large with a scientific perspective, and consider the fact that an over-populated world means death for all mankind.

[pong]

Most of the Catholic Church is pro-life and anti-death penalty. See: Catholic Social Teachings, and Dorothy Day.

I'm down with that.

From where I sit abortion is wrong, and more specifically "on demand" where someone just chooses to kill their baby because they are too selfish to take care of it.

And, as far as the death penalty is concerned, if it were up to me: if somebody committed a violent crime: I'd throw a rope over the nearest tree and hang them.

[Duff.]

Most of the Catholic Church is pro-life and anti-death penalty. See: Catholic Social Teachings, and Dorothy Day.

I'm down with that.

Seems mostly protestants confused on the matter, yes.

[Duff.]

Note to self: do not vote Pong for sherrif.

[pong]

Most of the Catholic Church is pro-life and anti-death penalty. See: Catholic Social Teachings, and Dorothy Day.

I'm down with that.

Seems mostly protestants confused on the matter, yes.

It all boils down to this:

respect for life.

That's why Catholics can do both. In both cases, they don't feel obligated to play God.

[pong]

Note to self: do not vote Pong for sherrif.

Problem is: that stance is what my heart tells me. My head is a different matter. Too many gray areas. Too many crooked cops. Too many innocents in prison. Too many minorities railroaded into crime. This is a tough, tough argument right here.

The reality is I go back and forth on this topic. Once I had kids, though, my parental instinct kicked in and now I don't quite have the same liberal views I once had. It's one of those "in a perfect situation where you KNOW the person has done this heinous act" I'd have no problem with hanging them and ridding society of their further harms. But, it's never a perfect situation and it is for this reason:

I concur: don't vote for me for Sherrif.