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Can there ever be a new "Nevermind"?


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#161 boobs

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 12:59 PM

Actually the theory I prefer is every time a drug becomes widely availble / cheap enough, something happens.

you are so U.K.
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#162 Mitchell

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 01:03 PM

i thought of coldplay in the start of this thread but didnt say anything. with parachuttes they had a nice underground album but by rush of blood, they were no longer indie, they were the next u2 and it was no longer an indie revolution.


Parachutes did debut @ #1 in the UK and "Trouble" and "Yellow" were top ten hits.

by the way i no longer care about this thread it is rambling and spastic


True, I'm am enjoying Deej's attempts to shoot down the influence of Nevermind which really without it there'd be a lot less rock music in the charts on either side of the Atlantic. He's also missing the point that it's an album that united Metal, Punk and Indie fans.
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#163 boobs

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 01:05 PM

I'm not saying it has no importance mitchell - i'm just saying that importance is overstated on this thread and in the music press (and that there are lots of other albums whose importance are understated by said groups)
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#164 undo

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 01:07 PM

Everyone I met at college who claimed to like jazz was like "Yeah, Benny Goodman was amazing!" I wanted to slap them.

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#165 BobtheSquid

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 01:07 PM

What Deej is so eloquently trying to say is Nirvana = white people = the devil.

#166 Efrim

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 01:09 PM



This is about an album being the bellweather for a cultural explosion in that immediate way as a moment in time again.

Dre's record was great and very influential, but there was no (read NO) "night and day" moment when it was big.

am i wrong that this is the crux of yr argument? Because thats exactly what i've been engaging with. Its exactly what I disagree with.


I've resisted getting knee deep into this debate...and 7 pages into the thread, perhaps now isn't the greatest time...but here goes:

First off, I'm on the side that's arguing there hasn't been a "bellweather" change since Nevermind; and I don't think this is one of those topics that is subjective...either an album is or it isn't. Chronic, while it was a great album, both commercially and critically successful, and influential on following releases...it didn't "shift the tides" so to speak (and if we were going to pick a post Nevermind hiphop album as a bellweather change album, I'd probably go with Eminem's The Marshall Mather's LP as the closest thing).

Second, I think the best way to guage it is what cultural effects resulted from the release of the album(s) and the ascension of the bands:

Nevermind/Nirvana: Really was the first "underground" punk album to do so well in the states, and chart at number 1 (I don't care if it was called grunge at the time...sonically it was a lot closer to punk).

Chronic/Dre: Gangsta Rap had already been on the charts for years (I believe NWA's "Efil4Zaggin" was the first)

Nevermind/Nirvana: Basically killed off popular metal, especially hair metal. Bands who were previously considered underground were now being signed in droves. Helmet was given a million dollar advance by their major label, and bands like the Melvins and Butthole Surfers got major label deals.

Chronic/Dre: I don't really think it killed off any genres of music. It certainly ushered in more gangsta rap....but gangsta rap had been infiltrating the mainstream long before the Chronic.

Nevermind/Nirvana: Kurt Cobain kills himself: it's front page news on every newspaper, magazine, and cable talk show.

Chronic/Dre: Well obviously we don't have a direct comparison, but there wasn't nearly as much news coverage of the Tupac and Biggie deaths. I'm not saying they weren't big stories...they just weren't nearly as big as the death of Cobain (and all three occured under similarly fantastical series of events). Cobains death was covered in the same manner as Lennon's.

I'll shut up for the time being.


Ok, I'm tired of this debate. It's time I made my point as forcefully as I can.

a. Nirvana at #1

So? Big deal. Did that change things for more then a couple years? Sure, we still have bands on major labels playing at punk, but did Nirvana change the major labels such that they kept on looking for credible punk acts after grunge died out? I'd have to say no. Gangster rap had certainly made an impact prior to Chronic, but Chronic was such a strong punch of an album that it showed that gangster rap was more than a trend, that is was a general shift in rap. Whatever you want to tell yourself grunge was just a trend. Seeing as how it's obviously been around in some form for well over 15 years, I'd say gangster rap is quite a bit more than that. Chronic is the album that sealed the deal on a massive shift in the realm of rap music. Nevermind was a symbol of a brief but fondly remembered musical trend and in many ways was actually the grand finale of the long simmering underground 80's scene.

b. Nirvana the genre killers

C'mon, was hair metal really going to be around that much longer anyways? The genre was totally stagnent. Nothing hangs around for long at that point regardless of what's waiting to replace it. Grunge certainly provided a dramatic counter-point to 80's excess, but if it hadn't been there something else would have been, shoegaze or britpop perhaps. The combination of utterly stagnent music at the top of the charts and an economic downturn made the public more ready to accept a new and somewhat challenging genre. If Nirvana wasn't there, someone else would have filled that hole.

As I mentioned before, Chronic was the closing argument in the shift from was rap was to what it became and still is today. Chronic was so powerful that it made it almost impossible to exist as a rap act without a claim to gangsta cred, as older rap acts had. Dre creates a situation in rap where a new york theater kid who got his start in Digital Underground (something two, can't recall) has to reinvent himself as the ultimate west coast gangster to have a succesful career. And still today we have idiots like 50 Cent taht exist almost solely on gangsta cred. That's influence. Nevermind and the entire grunge movement can't touch that.

c. media coverage

Are you kidding me? First of all, let's just compare Cobain's death vs. the deaths of 2pac and Biggie. Granted, Cobain's death is a big story....but the story ends there. The deaths of 2pac and Biggie lead into all kinds of massive media hype. Infact, their deaths can largely be attributed to the media hype of east coast v. west coast! Furthermore, the coverage of the grunge revolution doesn't even come close to the attention paid to gangster rap. Gangster rap was a key media scare story for a long time. Think about the cop killer controversy. Also think about the LA Riots. When that goes down, major media outlets are interviewing people like Ice-T saying "You saw this coming, what's happening in the streets?" Once again, while grunge was a fad, gangster rap was a movement that showed the radical social change that had happened in urban America during the 80's, both culturally and sonically.

#167 cerebralcaustic

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 01:13 PM

what's the source of that quote? I'm curious as to whose agenda it serves to give benny goodman credit for the origins of swing.

AMG

I'm not about to get into a debate about Swing, because I don't know shit about it. But I doubt you know shit about it either

#168 HandBanana

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 01:14 PM

lol yr joking right? My favorite is "Swing (Benny Goodman)"


And with that one quote, you have shown that you dont have any idea at all how these cultural shifts work.

Im done here, theres got to be some other brick wall I can have an argument with.
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#169 stphone

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 01:17 PM

Ok, I'm tired of this debate. It's time I made my point as forcefully as I can.

a. Nirvana at #1

So? Big deal. Did that change things for more then a couple years? Sure, we still have bands on major labels playing at punk, but did Nirvana change the major labels such that they kept on looking for credible punk acts after grunge died out? I'd have to say no. Gangster rap had certainly made an impact prior to Chronic, but Chronic was such a strong punch of an album that it showed that gangster rap was more than a trend, that is was a general shift in rap. Whatever you want to tell yourself grunge was just a trend. Seeing as how it's obviously been around in some form for well over 15 years, I'd say gangster rap is quite a bit more than that. Chronic is the album that sealed the deal on a massive shift in the realm of rap music. Nevermind was a symbol of a brief but fondly remembered musical trend and in many ways was actually the grand finale of the long simmering underground 80's scene.

b. Nirvana the genre killers

C'mon, was hair metal really going to be around that much longer anyways? The genre was totally stagnent. Nothing hangs around for long at that point regardless of what's waiting to replace it. Grunge certainly provided a dramatic counter-point to 80's excess, but if it hadn't been there something else would have been, shoegaze or britpop perhaps. The combination of utterly stagnent music at the top of the charts and an economic downturn made the public more ready to accept a new and somewhat challenging genre. If Nirvana wasn't there, someone else would have filled that hole.

As I mentioned before, Chronic was the closing argument in the shift from was rap was to what it became and still is today. Chronic was so powerful that it made it almost impossible to exist as a rap act without a claim to gangsta cred, as older rap acts had. Dre creates a situation in rap where a new york theater kid who got his start in Digital Underground (something two, can't recall) has to reinvent himself as the ultimate west coast gangster to have a succesful career. And still today we have idiots like 50 Cent taht exist almost solely on gangsta cred. That's influence. Nevermind and the entire grunge movement can't touch that.

c. media coverage

Are you kidding me? First of all, let's just compare Cobain's death vs. the deaths of 2pac and Biggie. Granted, Cobain's death is a big story....but the story ends there. The deaths of 2pac and Biggie lead into all kinds of massive media hype. Infact, their deaths can largely be attributed to the media hype of east coast v. west coast! Furthermore, the coverage of the grunge revolution doesn't even come close to the attention paid to gangster rap. Gangster rap was a key media scare story for a long time. Think about the cop killer controversy. Also think about the LA Riots. When that goes down, major media outlets are interviewing people like Ice-T saying "You saw this coming, what's happening in the streets?" Once again, while grunge was a fad, gangster rap was a movement that showed the radical social change that had happened in urban America during the 80's, both culturally and sonically.



OTM

#170 undo

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 01:19 PM

I can't help but picture tylerdurden74 as his avatar throughout most of this thread.

#171 yancy

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 01:22 PM

Efrim makes most convincing argument for/against anything in thread thusfar. Very nicely done.

#172 Bong Hits 4 Jesus

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 01:23 PM

Is Cantstopwontstop the one who gave Revolver a thumbs down? Explains a lot. She needs to open her eyes and see not all white bands are bad.
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#173 HandBanana

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 01:23 PM

Hahahaha. We couldnt be more dis-similar. Although I did write a dong called "I Wanna Rock Ya Body" and then in parentheses it says "Til The Break Of Dawn" but thats neither here nor there.
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#174 BobtheSquid

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 01:24 PM

Efrim makes most convincing argument for/against anything in thread thusfar. Very nicely done.


Not really. Everything he says about The Chronic holds true for Nevermind. Just change the names and genres.

This thread isn't an argument about which album had a greater impact; it's simply a bunch of people stating their musical preferences (hip-hop vs. rock).

#175 HandBanana

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 01:29 PM

This isn't an argument about which album had a greater impact; it's simply a bunch of people stating their musical preferences (hip-hop vs. rock).



And BTS nails it.

Why do you suppose it is that the rock people tend to be more open minded RE: hip hop, but not so much vice versa?

I like it all. I dont think theres a single genre that I dont listen to.
What I enjoy basically is creativity as expression of the human experience thing.
If youve got something interesting to say and a compelling way to say it, then I dont care if youre using a fiddle, an 808, a guitar, turntables or a spoon.

I dont need to tie myself to a genre so fiercely because I dont use music for my identity.
Sure the music I listen to is an expression of who I am, but doing that in reverse seems stupid and shallow to me.
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#176 Mitchell

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 01:30 PM


Whose victory was this?

In 1984, Black Flag released Slip It In. In 1985, Hüsker Dü released New Day Rising. In 1987, Butthole Surfers released Locust Abortion Technician. In 1990, the Cows released the “Slap Back”/”One O’Clock High” single. Understand where I’m going with this? Kurt Cobain understood. It’s been said that he spent more time promoting other bands than his own. Kleenex/Liliput, the Vaselines, the Melvins, the Raincoats, and Daniel Johnston all benefited greatly from time spent on Cobain’s chest. Doubtless this was a helping hand from a man stunned by his sudden ascent—on the back of demographic morph—to the toast of rock. Doubtless, too, was Cobain’s malingering fear of selling out. Lest anyone else accuse him of bilking his forebears, he went on the offensive, pointing up the similarities between “Smells Like Teen Spirit” and any of the Pixies’ peak albums.

Even Nirvana’s biggest fans—and since the band has joined Radiohead as the token 90s rockcriticals, said fans are legion—admit that Nevermind wasn’t exactly cold fusion. Rolling Stone gave the record a cautiously enthusiastic three stars upon its release. The Trouser Press Guide notes that the record’s greatest legacy is as a “colonic” to the drear-nighted December of radio rock.

You’ll have to forgive me for expending so many words on the phenomenon of Nevermind, rather than the music. But that’s the mortal sin to which so many others have fallen prey. If you extricate the record from its historical context—hell, if Kurt Cobain were still alive—you’ll be left holding a pleasant shot of adrenaline.

Let’s get to the record. That iconic cover, that typically ham-fisted punk metaphor. It would be unfair to fault a record for some AmRep-type shit on the jacket, but the only thing remotely edgy about this cover is that you can see the baby’s pee-pee.

The album itself is frontloaded, like any pop record worth its salt, with the hits: “Smells Like Teen Spirit,” “In Bloom,” “Come As You Are,” “Breed,” “Lithium.” “Teen Spirit” is nearly undeniable, a potent cocktail of arena-ready fatalism and deliberate jabberwocky. From the two-note guitar drift of the verses to the Butch Vig-induced smackdown of Dave Grohl and Krist Novoselic’s underrated rhythm section, the track makes for heady nostalgia, if not a generational taxon. For an audience kicking against the preening of Guns ‘n’ Roses and Bon Jovi, it must’ve been an aural enema; for stalwarts of the American Underground, it was mostly the come-on of a brave new economic future. “In Bloom” proved to be the most prophetic of Kurt’s lyrics, as its perfectly deployed pedals sweeten the bizarre swipe against the more ignorant among the band’s fan base. If, famously, everyone who heard the Velvet Underground formed a band, everyone who heard Nirvana eventually sold back an Oasis album.

“Come As You Are” slows down the riff from Killing Joke’s “Eighties”—itself as good an indictment of the music industry as Nirvana’s success was supposed to be—to spooky effect. However, the second helping of the “No, I don’t have a gun” (O bitter irony!) refrain reveals this song as merely a plateau of vague gloom, wheels without the Axl. “Lithium,” with its chunky rhythm guitar, relatively ambitious melody, and self-hate chorus, fares much better.

A few of these tracks were exhumed for the on-the-whole commendable MTV Unplugged disc (helping slake the rockist demand for classically Important songs). “On a Plain” is so bright-faced in its melody, with such spectacular backing vocals, that the translation to acoustic instruments elicited no new revelations. The band dipped into genuine pop convention with its middle eight (not seen since “About a Girl”), and the song benefits from some of the album’s strongest lyrics. “My mother died every night,” Cobain mumbles with a wink, “it's safe to say: don't quote me on that.” Quite possibly, the best song on the album. The less said about the numbing “Polly,” the better. Album closer “Something in the Way,” on the other hand, is the closest thing to a revolution. Kurt’s hollowed vocal, slightly above a whisper, is inserted like a slim slow slider under the veiny rivulets of cello and acoustic strum. While Cobain’s own little work of mythology was eventually debunked (he was never truly homeless), the imagery of an alienated soul trapping pets under a bridge, guiltily eating fish, is indelible.

And as much as we’re reminded that this is a punk rock LP at its heart, it’s the punk tracks that’ve aged the worst. “Breed” and “Stay Away” are pleasant nothings, a chance for Kurt to go under the radar with his suspicions about, respectively, domesticity and the garden-variety rebellion it inevitably produces. The latter track is superior, but was even better in its previous, rawer incarnation as “Pay to Play.” “Territorial Pissings” is just that, a superfluous stab back at hardcore cred which finds Cobain lamely crooning “just because you’re paranoid, doesn’t mean they’re after you.”

So there it is: a muscular distillation of indie id and punk minimalism, a good record that rode some magic confluence into world-beater status. History shows that Nirvana’s legacy was largely financial. Any of you could recite the story from memory: Nevermind dethrones Michael Jackson at Billboard’s summit; aesthetic third cousins Pearl Jam, Mudhoney, Alice in Chains et al witness stratospheric sales (well, not Mudhoney); mainstream rock music now demands the loaded idea of “authenticity;” major labels go on a shopping spree for three-chord moaners (Hello, Collective Soul! How do you do, Athanaeum! Go to hell, Local H!), “indie” music gets caught in the sucker’s cycle of the Next Nirvana.

Fascinatingly, Nirvana has spawned no imitators worthy of its original imitations. A few years back, the Vines were notoriously tabbed as “Nirvana meets the Beatles,” a classic case of subtraction-by-addition if ever there was one. Sadly, it seems that Nirvana’s loudest legacy will be the angsty post-grunge children of Lieutenant Schmidt running the mainstream rock charts. Just as pop-metal provided the perfect contrast to Cobain and Co., the millennial glut of bands like Creed, Live, and 3 Doors Down made acts like the Strokes sound like “The Black Angel’s Death Song” to corrupted ears. The cycle continues.

In the wake of Kurt Cobain’s 1994 death, the hive instinct was to raise a suicide auteur from the ashes of a dead rocker. Lyrics were injected with refracted relevance. Cobain himself got retrofitted with a Messiah complex; instead of sins, he died for our expectations. It’s grotesque, but that’s why corporate magazines still suck. The kicker is, for all the laud bestowed for dragging ‘indie’ aboveground, 1) indie (as both a set of structural decisions and an aesthetic) had been doing just fine, and 2) the trickle-down effect, breathlessly anticipated, never really occurred. Brutal Juice gets scuttled, but Velvet Revolver is hailed as an invigorating return to form.

Nevermind gave people like you and me a victory we never asked for, in a battle soon taken out of our hands. Minutemen were a victory. Pavement was a victory. Pain Teens were a victory. Hell, Big Star and Stax/Volt were victories. But who ultimately shared in Nirvana’s spoils? The Puddle of Mudd guy wearing a Minor Threat shirt? Fuse TV? Pete Doherty?


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#177 Efrim

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 01:30 PM


Efrim makes most convincing argument for/against anything in thread thusfar. Very nicely done.


Not really. Everything he says about The Chronic holds true for Nevermind. Just change the names and genres.

This isn't an argument about which album had a greater impact; it's simply a bunch of people stating their musical preferences (hip-hop vs. rock).


umm....no. Actually, I don't even own a copy of Chronic. It's just clearly more important. Just because you grew up with something and loved it like I did with Nevermind (yeah, that's right), doesn't mean you can claim it as important in the big picture. When you take the widest perspective on popular music, Chronic is just way more important. Which is not to say that Nevermind wasn't a big influence on a lot of people, just that chronic was more so.

And if everything I said holds true for Nevermind, then let's see that argument. Go ahead, convince me. If you put forth the effort, I won't be a jackass about it at all. I'd like to hear this.

#178 boobs

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 01:35 PM


Efrim makes most convincing argument for/against anything in thread thusfar. Very nicely done.


Not really. Everything he says about The Chronic holds true for Nevermind. Just change the names and genres.

This thread isn't an argument about which album had a greater impact; it's simply a bunch of people stating their musical preferences (hip-hop vs. rock).

Trouble reading much? This is so ridiculous - i've said from the beginning i think that nevermind is a great album and I haven't once used the point that chronic is 'better' in order to make my point that the chronic has had a larger impact. I did argue that its impact was more musically significant, but never did the objective "x > y" enter into my argument.

Efrim's otm but he has a lot more patience than i do.

Why do you suppose it is that the rock people tend to be more open minded RE: hip hop, but not so much vice versa?

massive lol

what's the source of that quote? I'm curious as to whose agenda it serves to give benny goodman credit for the origins of swing.

AMG

I'm not about to get into a debate about Swing, because I don't know shit about it. But I doubt you know shit about it either

You would be wrong.

lol yr joking right? My favorite is "Swing (Benny Goodman)"


And with that one quote, you have shown that you dont have any idea at all how these cultural shifts work.

Im done here, theres got to be some other brick wall I can have an argument with.

OK I get it now; those cultural shifts work like this: white person does it = massive cultural shift
The one who put the satin on your panties.

#179 Efrim

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 01:37 PM



Why do you suppose it is that the rock people tend to be more open minded RE: hip hop, but not so much vice versa?

massive lol



lol indeed. Since when have Deej and I ever been united as "hip hop people"

Why it was maybe a week ago that I wrote "Deej sucks (verifiable fact)."

But I give it up to people when they're right, and he's more correct here, even if he's being his usual inflamatory self about it.

#180 boobs

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 01:39 PM

Efrim makes most convincing argument for/against anything in thread thusfar. Very nicely done.

yancy in blowing with the wind shocker
The one who put the satin on your panties.