162 replies to this topic

[The Good Dr Bill]

So you've seen the evidence, you've heard the arguments, now it's time to put this thing to a decision. Do you guys want to stick with the voting method I've used for all our EOYs and other polls thusfar, or do you want a new top-heavy system, one with a greater emphasis on personal favorites? Time to choose. Three notes I'd like to make before opening the thread: 1. In keeping with our nation's checks-and-balances system, this poll will require a two-thirds majority to enforce a new system. Sorry, but I'm not gonna change around the whole thing because one more person thought it would be a good idea than not (already did that for the decade polls, in fact). 2. The new system, if selected, will most likely not adhere either to Sickpup or Mitch's systems, but to a new one of my choosing. Mitch and the Pup are welcome to advise and assist in its creation. 3. I certainly hope it doesn't come to this, but please let me know if you're planning on doing a poll walkout if we change the system, so perhaps we can avoid a fiasco like last year. The poll will be open from now until roughly this time tomorrow, after which the EOY threads will be started.

[Simakos]

leave it alone

[Sickpup]

<shakes head> look, you're accurately describing the new proposed method, but if you're going to place a qualifier in front of the sickpup/mitchell methods like "top-heavy," you should use the "ubiquity-rewarding" modifier to describe your system.

[falling and laughing]

Voting and being able to determine not only which records you prefer over others but by how much is a better, more accurate system in my mind. And I've seen versions of both systems in action, and the sickpup method seems to work better. I probably helped scare people away with the political voting stuff, but I would seriously doubt that would become an issue for anyone other than Bill, who'll have the luxury of voting last and knowing to what degree his points allocations will affect the overall results.

[Bobzilla]

I voted for leaving it the way it is, mostly because my lists tend to go longer and deeper than top 10 or 20, and not just as padding. I listen to a lot of albums over the course of the year, and I think those other list-worthy albums are better than just being also-rans in a poll. The weighted system certainly puts the emphasis on the best-of-the-best, and maybe that's not a bad thing. Of course, I'll be voting in any case.

[scarymuppet]

As I've said in other threads: What these lists are meant to do is find the SOMB's consensus. This means the albums that the board as a whole likes best. A top-heavy system could ruin this in major ways. Let's say Kings X releases a new album. Now we're going to have a small number of the Kinds X hold-over vote it top ten, and no one else will vote for it at all. Instead of being low on the list if present at all, the album will gain an unnaturally high position. A small group of people (incl. board invasions: the ICP could end up on our list with the new system) can throw an irrelevant and/or shitty album higher up our list. The current system prevents that. You might think that this is good, and that your favorite obscure album that no one else knows now has a shot, but wouldn't a better way of getting that album on the list be throwing it out there in the pimping thread? Loads of voters read these threads and the pimping has major effects on the final list. Overall, the top-heavy system won't make THAT much of a major change. Sufjan still would have won last year's list. The only difference is that a few marginalized albums will be higher than they should be (lowering albums that were actually generally well-liked on the board) and the poll will less reflect the actual consensus of opinions on the SOMB. Oh, Bill, my argument above applies to either case, and my vote would be the same in either case, but would the new system be one with personal weighting or just higher point values for the top spots? Though it wouldn't really be in protest, I would be unlikely to submit a list to a poll with personal weighting, as that shit is flat-out retarded.

[Sickpup]

Oh, Bill, my argument above applies to either case, and my vote would be the same in either case, but would the new system be one with personal weighting or just higher point values for the top spots? Though it wouldn't really be in protest, I would be unlikely to submit a list to a poll with personal weighting, as that shit is flat-out retarded.

i don't think he's decided. i'd actually be ok with a tiered system as opposed to one that allows personal weighting, if people think that's best. any kind of new weighting would be preferable to the status quo.

[scarymuppet]

Oh, and there's less incentive to make a longer list, as the votes lower on your list have very little effect.

[Sickpup]

Oh, and there's less incentive to make a longer list, as the votes lower on your list have very little effect.

that's very true; however, these votes do actually make a quite a bit of difference in the second half of the top 100. they break a lot of ties.

[Elemeno P.T.]

<shakes head>

look, you're accurately describing the new proposed method, but if you're going to place a qualifier in front of the sickpup/mitchell methods like "top-heavy," you should use the "ubiquity-rewarding" modifier to describe your system.

Exactly...Bill- it's a very cool diversion (and don't think I don't appreciate all the entertainment you've provided), but you seem to personalize this a wee too much.

[Slackmo]

<shakes head>

look, you're accurately describing the new proposed method, but if you're going to place a qualifier in front of the sickpup/mitchell methods like "top-heavy," you should use the "ubiquity-rewarding" modifier to describe your system.

I think the weighting will definitely make for a slightly better reflection of individual tastes, but I'm not buying this ubiquity-accounts-for-hegemony crap. It completely ignores the role that quality plays in ubiquity. Certainly, a lot of phenomenal albums never get the attention they deserve--we all have favorites that we each feel are maddeningly, unjustly unacclaimed.

But if ubiquity had anything to do with it, you wouldn't get anomalies like The College Dropout (which Acclaimed had at #16 for the decade) finishing at #105 over our particular ten-year stretch, behind (among a host of other things) two Boredoms albums.

A lot of the stuff that gets lambasted or casually dismissed around here (like Neutral Milk Hotel, Lucinda Williams, Pete Yorn, The New Pornographers) are only household names in our neck of the woods--hell, I wouldn't have have heard of half of the albums on my list if I didn't hang around here so much.

And I guess that's the thing that's getting lost in this--like most of the locals, if damn near anybody reco's something or speaks passionately about a band or album or track, I'll give it a legitimate shot. Which largely means, among other things, that the playing field for what the rest of the world regards as obscurities is much more level than any of this condescending whining lets on.

[Artem]

i'm for the new method. that 95-05 list looked incredibly stacked, but 90-99 list looked somewhat more diverse ( it think there were 2 rap records in the top 10 there). i might be wrong but, i think the first method is good for decade lists where people have longer lists. it's much better to do a heavy weighted top 10 system polling for a single year list, cos the top 10 is the most important here. i can't see people making a top 30-100 list of the albums for 1 year and consider all those essential. that's just to make things look big and scary. i listened to qiute a lot albums from that year, like i'm sure most people did here too. i could make a top 100, but out of that top i'd have only 5 album in the top that i could care about. so, i'd rather see my top albums rated higher than just kind of picking and stiching things up from the bottoms of the lists.

[Mitchell]

As a reminder; 100 Iron & Wine - Woman King 99 Sons & Daughters - The Repulsion Box 98 Nada Surf - The Weight is a Gift 97 The Constantines - Tournament of Hearts 96 Sunn 0))) - Back One 95 The Editors - The Back Room 94 Saint Etienne - Tales from Turnpike House 93 Serena Manesh - Serena Manesh 92 The Books - Lost and Safe 91 Black Rebel Motorcycle Club - Howl 90 Supergrass - Road to Rouen 89 Shout Out Louds - Howl Howl Gaff Gaff 88 The Fiery Furnaces - EP 87 The Boy Least Likely To - The Best Party Ever 86 Depeche Mode - Playing the Angel 85 Ryan Adams (& the Cardinals) - Jacksonville City Nights 84 Elbow - Leaders of the Free World 83 Super Furry Animals - Love Kraft 82 Richard Hawley - Coles Corner 81 Engineers - Engineers 80 Tom Vek - We Have Sound 79 New Order - Waiting for the Sirens' Call 78 Devin Davis - Lonely People of the World, Unite! 77 Isolee - Wearemonster 76 The Kaiser Chiefs - Employment 75 The Raveonettes - Pretty in Black 74 Boards of Canada - The Campfire Headphase 73 Deerhoof - The Runners Four 72 The Pernice Brothers - Discover a Lovelier You 71 Smog - A River Ain't Too Much Love 70 The Mountain Goats - The Sunset Tree 69 Stars - Set Yourself on Fire 68 Jamie Lidell - Multiply 67 The Juan MacLean - Less Than Human 66 Lightning Bolt - Hypermagic Mountain 65 Hood - Outside Closer 64 Calexico and Iron & Wine - In the Reins 63 Queens of the Stone Age - Lullabies to Paralyze 62 DangerDoom - The Mouse and the Mask 61 Caribou - The Milk of Human Kindness 60 Kings of Leon - Aha Shake Heartbreak 59 Dungen - Ta Det Lungt 58 System of a Down - Mesmerize 57 Konono No. 1 - Congotronics 56 Vitalic - OK Cowboy 55 The Magic Numbers - The Magic Numbers 54 Garret Kriston - George Takei's Rock 'n' Roll Primer 53 Rachel Stevens - Come and Get It 52 Ryan Adams - Cold Roses 51 Devendra Banhart - Cripple Crow 50 The Russian Futurists - Our Thickness 49 Low - The Great Destroyer 48 Common - Be 47 Fischerspooner - Odyssey 46 British Sea Power - Open Season 45 Of Montreal - The Sunlandic Twins 44 The Clientele - Strange Geometry 43 Silver Jews - Tanglewood Numbers 42 Akron/Family - Akron/Family 41 Opeth - Ghost Reveries 40 Stephen Malkmus - Face the Truth 39 M Ward - Transistor Radio 38 Broadcast - Tender Buttons 37 Edan - Beauty and the Beat 36 Architecture in Helsinki - In Case We Die 35 Art Brut - Bang Bang Rock and Roll 34 Coldplay - X&Y 33 Antony & The Johnsons - I Am Bird Now 32 The Hold Steady - Separation Sunday 31 M.I.A. - Arular 30 Ladytron - Witching Hour 29 Fiona Apple - Extraordinary Machine 28 Rogue Wave - Descended Like Vultures 27 Beck - Guero 26 The Decembarists - Picaresque 25 Animal Collective - Feels 24 Bright Eyes - I'm Wide Awake, It's Morning 23 The Go! Team - Thunder Lightning Strike 22 A Certain Trigger - Maxïmo Park 21 Some Cities - Doves 20 Let Us Never Speak of it Again -Outhud 19 Takk- Sigur Ros 18 Late Registration - Kanye West 17 Clap Your Hands Say Yeah! - Clap Your Hands Say Yeah! 16 Alligator - The National 15 Okkervil River - Black Sheep Boy 14 My Morning Jacket - Z 13 Broken Social Scene - Broken Social Scene 12 Demon Days - Gorrilaz 11 You Can Have It So Much Better - Franz Ferdinand 10 The Woods - Sleater Kinney 9 Get Behind Me Satan - The White Stripes 8 Before The Dawn Heal Us - M83 7 LCD Soundsystem - LCD Soundystem 6 Gimmie Fiction - Spoon 5 The Mysterious Production of Threads - Andrew Bird 4 Silent Alarm - Bloc Party 3 Twin Cinema - The New Pornographers 2 Apologies To The Queen Mary - Wolf Parade 1 Illnoise - Sufjan Stevens

[Mitchell]

I can't get a fast turn around on some of the stats from here but one that caught my eye is that on Bill's 90-99 results 17 albums made the top 100 without featuring in a single top ten. We had 35 voters as well so it's not like enough votes weren't cast. There was one on Sickpup's method and 6 on mine

On the other hand a number of albums made the higher reaches of the chart on Sickpup's method on the back of only four votes. Aenima finished 12 on Sickpups list, 24 on mine and 55 on Bill's on the back of 4 votes (3 in the top ten.)

Both of these are extreme examples, more voters (twice or thrice as many for EOY) would make this less extreme but I'm for a list like Bill's but with a heavy points distribution like my movie list so that we get both albums that many people have heard and are enthusiastic about AND those albums that have made a large impression on a select band of people. the best in genre's as it were.

[The Good Dr Bill]

<shakes head>

look, you're accurately describing the new proposed method, but if you're going to place a qualifier in front of the sickpup/mitchell methods like "top-heavy," you should use the "ubiquity-rewarding" modifier to describe your system.

I knew you were gonna find some issue with my wording. In what way is top-heavy not an accurate and impartial qualifier? "Ubiquity-rewarding" is far, far less impartial (and speculative).

Ad people. Ugh.

<shakes head>

look, you're accurately describing the new proposed method, but if you're going to place a qualifier in front of the sickpup/mitchell methods like "top-heavy," you should use the "ubiquity-rewarding" modifier to describe your system.

Exactly...Bill- it's a very cool diversion (and don't think I don't appreciate all the entertainment you've provided), but you seem to personalize this a wee too much.

goddamn, are you serious? I'm not even sure which side of the fence I'm on at this point. You guys are fucking paranoid, honestly, there was absolutely nothing biased about my original post.

if anything, you could use the phrase "greater emphasis on personal favorites" as evidence that I'm biased towards the other side. Who wouldn't want to put a greater emphasis on their personal favorites? That phraise is way more loaded than "top-heavy".

[Elemeno P.T.]

<shakes head>

look, you're accurately describing the new proposed method, but if you're going to place a qualifier in front of the sickpup/mitchell methods like "top-heavy," you should use the "ubiquity-rewarding" modifier to describe your system.

I knew you were gonna find some issue with my wording. In what way is top-heavy not an accurate and impartial qualifier? "Ubiquity-rewarding" is far, far less impartial (and speculative).

Ad people. Ugh.

<shakes head>

look, you're accurately describing the new proposed method, but if you're going to place a qualifier in front of the sickpup/mitchell methods like "top-heavy," you should use the "ubiquity-rewarding" modifier to describe your system.

Exactly...Bill- it's a very cool diversion (and don't think I don't appreciate all the entertainment you've provided), but you seem to personalize this a wee too much.

goddamn, are you serious? I'm not even sure which side of the fence I'm on at this point. You guys are fucking paranoid, honestly, there was absolutely nothing biased about my original post.

It was directed not at a single post in this thread but at an over-sensitivity (as again evidenced by your reply above) to this whole issue dating back to the origin of the scoring system being questioned, whenever that was.

[The Good Dr Bill]

well, posting your post in reply to Sickpup's (which was explicitly referring to my first post) certainly made it look like that was what it was in reference to. And yeah, honestly, I'm not sure which voting system I'd prefer at this point. I like the old system but part of me is curious what a new one would look like. I haven't even voted yet. I was pretty sure the new system was gonna take this poll in a landslide, though. Sort of ironic that the more vocal boarders in opposition are being outweighed by the silent majority, no?

[Elemeno P.T.]

well, posting your post in reply to Sickpup's (which was explicitly referring to my first post) certainly made it look like that was what it was in reference to.

And yeah, honestly, I'm not sure which voting system I'd prefer at this point. I like the old system but part of me is curious what a new one would look like. I haven't even voted yet.

I was pretty sure the new system was gonna take this poll in a landslide, though. Sort of ironic that the more vocal boarders in opposition are being outweighed by the silent majority, no?

Yes. I thought the discussion would lead to some small variation to the current system, but not to the level os sickpup. I stand by my feeling that top five votes influence my decision to buy an album more than a greater number of lower votes.

[Agrimorfee]

... I'm for a list like Bill's but with a heavy points distribution like my movie list so that we get both albums that many people have heard and are enthusiastic about AND those albums that have made a large impression on a select band of people. the best in genre's as it were.

The simplest, and therefore most convincing, arguement for a new system . I'll go with whatever Mitchell suggests.

[undo]

Weighted voting would make latter additions (you know, the "oh, I forgot ____ and want to tack it on to the end of my list!" votest) impossible. Which is kind of a shame. But maybe that's okay because those people obviously didn't love those albums in the first place!

I don't really know what I'm in favor of, to be honest, and I know that this isn't the discussion thread for such a thing. I'll decide later tonight or something. No time to deal with this now.

The simplest, and therefore most convincing, arguement for a new system . I'll go with whatever Mitchell suggests.

We do need to hear more from him. I'd feel better knowing he was involved somehow. He's done polls in the past and they've all turned out well.