Full Version: sick of kanye west? nytimes is.
So, he agrees it's the best album of the year but still searches for anything he can to complain about.
Great article.
Great article.
What's interesting about backlash? The writer's hypocrisy? Backlash is always hypocritical.
"Perhaps all the critical love has turned it into a cult album."
Yeah, Kanye West, cult artist...right.
this article is contrarian for the sake of being contrarian bullshit. He even admits he likes the album!
Yeah, Kanye West, cult artist...right.
this article is contrarian for the sake of being contrarian bullshit. He even admits he likes the album!
"'Twisted Fantasy' may become Mr. West’s first album without a Top 10 pop single."
^
Like I said, no hits.
^
Like I said, no hits.
this article is pretty empty and the times is one of the worst places to read about art/culture but i will quote this:
this is sort of restating a point i was trying to make in the Kanye West thread. the album itself is presumptuous - somehow demanding of critical attention and praise - even among its detractors. everyone recognizes the 'grandness' with which the music presents itself. from the vantage point of a critic who is forced to assign some numerical score to a work like My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy, it begs for a high one.
to some, this is a product of Kanye West's fame, and people elevating 'style over substance' in an effort to make it feel like a cultural watershed moment. like something important happened musically and we were all there. to me, it represents mastery of his form. the music is digestible, relatable, understandable. sonically, it is carefully mulled over and expertly crafted, even detractors would admit. that helps it score well.
QUOTE
These ratings and rankings make a statement about not only the presumed quality of the album, but also about institutional decisions regarding an artist’s worthiness, and about those institutions’ desire to be seen acknowledging an artist’s worthiness. Enjoying an album is a private, micro affair; certainly not everyone on the staffs of those publications felt that Mr. West’s album was the best. But advocating for it is a macro decision, carrying the weight of many — and by extension, all, not one.
this is sort of restating a point i was trying to make in the Kanye West thread. the album itself is presumptuous - somehow demanding of critical attention and praise - even among its detractors. everyone recognizes the 'grandness' with which the music presents itself. from the vantage point of a critic who is forced to assign some numerical score to a work like My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy, it begs for a high one.
to some, this is a product of Kanye West's fame, and people elevating 'style over substance' in an effort to make it feel like a cultural watershed moment. like something important happened musically and we were all there. to me, it represents mastery of his form. the music is digestible, relatable, understandable. sonically, it is carefully mulled over and expertly crafted, even detractors would admit. that helps it score well.
Impossible Soul deserved more attention than the Kanye record IMHO and I'd argue they're of the same genre.
Nah, all is right with the world.
I feel like this is beyond obvious, but maybe we stopped making records this way, or at least stopped looking at them that way.
QUOTE (Chronodiggity @ Jan 3 2011, 01:13 PM) 
this article is pretty empty and the times is one of the worst places to read about art/culture but i will quote this:
this is sort of restating a point i was trying to make in the Kanye West thread. the album itself is presumptuous - somehow demanding of critical attention and praise - even among its detractors. everyone recognizes the 'grandness' with which the music presents itself. from the vantage point of a critic who is forced to assign some numerical score to a work like My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy, it begs for a high one.
to some, this is a product of Kanye West's fame, and people elevating 'style over substance' in an effort to make it feel like a cultural watershed moment. like something important happened musically and we were all there. to me, it represents mastery of his form. the music is digestible, relatable, understandable. sonically, it is carefully mulled over and expertly crafted, even detractors would admit. that helps it score well.
QUOTE
These ratings and rankings make a statement about not only the presumed quality of the album, but also about institutional decisions regarding an artist's worthiness, and about those institutions' desire to be seen acknowledging an artist's worthiness. Enjoying an album is a private, micro affair; certainly not everyone on the staffs of those publications felt that Mr. West's album was the best. But advocating for it is a macro decision, carrying the weight of many — and by extension, all, not one.
this is sort of restating a point i was trying to make in the Kanye West thread. the album itself is presumptuous - somehow demanding of critical attention and praise - even among its detractors. everyone recognizes the 'grandness' with which the music presents itself. from the vantage point of a critic who is forced to assign some numerical score to a work like My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy, it begs for a high one.
to some, this is a product of Kanye West's fame, and people elevating 'style over substance' in an effort to make it feel like a cultural watershed moment. like something important happened musically and we were all there. to me, it represents mastery of his form. the music is digestible, relatable, understandable. sonically, it is carefully mulled over and expertly crafted, even detractors would admit. that helps it score well.
I feel like this is beyond obvious, but maybe we stopped making records this way, or at least stopped looking at them that way.
well the trend has definitely been away from highly visible, high budget art music.
take Taylor Swift for example. her music is both highly visible and high budget in terms of production and whatnot, but it makes no attempt to be evaluated on the same level as MBDTF. it is pure pop music for mass consumption through its marketing, despite perhaps having some artistic elements worth examining.
then we have something like Arcade Fire. in an article with the times as well, Win Butler said the band was hoping to achieve an "amateur sheen". while they have become a band that is highly visible, they shy away from sounding high budget because that's not 'indie'. 'serious music' that 'has a point' is supposed to sound like it came from a basement or was recorded in a Canadian church, not from a high tech studio in Hawaii. High Violet is another example of trying to surround your music with a dark, muted atmosphere so that you aren't perceived as 'bombastic and corny'.
to me this is somewhat of a racial issue. the history of black entertainers in America, and i'm speaking incredibly broadly and painting with equally broad strokes, has been pigeonholed into a minstrel tradition, or as clownish. black artists are expected to be more self-fascinated, more showy, and more 'out there'. the Anglo-American critical consensus is much less likely to disparage a black man for making an over-the-top, gaudy record. why does someone like Katy Perry, who is just making disposable pop music, feel so gross and classless, while Beyonce struts around with a robotic arm talking about 'single ladies' and everyone respects it? i'd have to use a lot more words to really get into the nuance of what i think Americans at large expect from artists of different races, but this is the gist. of course, Beyonce isn't just 'cool pop music' because she's black and Katy Perry 'uncool pop music' because she's white - there's a world of difference musically between the two - but it is an element of the disconnect.
take Taylor Swift for example. her music is both highly visible and high budget in terms of production and whatnot, but it makes no attempt to be evaluated on the same level as MBDTF. it is pure pop music for mass consumption through its marketing, despite perhaps having some artistic elements worth examining.
then we have something like Arcade Fire. in an article with the times as well, Win Butler said the band was hoping to achieve an "amateur sheen". while they have become a band that is highly visible, they shy away from sounding high budget because that's not 'indie'. 'serious music' that 'has a point' is supposed to sound like it came from a basement or was recorded in a Canadian church, not from a high tech studio in Hawaii. High Violet is another example of trying to surround your music with a dark, muted atmosphere so that you aren't perceived as 'bombastic and corny'.
to me this is somewhat of a racial issue. the history of black entertainers in America, and i'm speaking incredibly broadly and painting with equally broad strokes, has been pigeonholed into a minstrel tradition, or as clownish. black artists are expected to be more self-fascinated, more showy, and more 'out there'. the Anglo-American critical consensus is much less likely to disparage a black man for making an over-the-top, gaudy record. why does someone like Katy Perry, who is just making disposable pop music, feel so gross and classless, while Beyonce struts around with a robotic arm talking about 'single ladies' and everyone respects it? i'd have to use a lot more words to really get into the nuance of what i think Americans at large expect from artists of different races, but this is the gist. of course, Beyonce isn't just 'cool pop music' because she's black and Katy Perry 'uncool pop music' because she's white - there's a world of difference musically between the two - but it is an element of the disconnect.
I remember when Destiny's Child first made it big you could see Beyonce had real star power from the start. Katie Perry has that over-achieving stage-school sheen, like the entertainment rep at a holiday camp but pushed to the nth degree. She's the pop music equivalent of Tracy Flick from Election I reckon. Whereas Beyonce is more like Reese Witherspoon.
Hmmmm..... Not sure I'm with you on the racial element, not completely. Seems like what's been popular in hip-hop, Kanye and Drake aside, has been a lot of intentionally cheap sounding beats and keys, trap coventions and whatnot. The rhymes of course have been self-aggrandizing as as always been the case in hip hop but thats different than the music having that same scope.
Otherwise, it seems we've shied away from bold outsized works from big name artists, I agree.
Otherwise, it seems we've shied away from bold outsized works from big name artists, I agree.
I think Perry and Beyonce have way different goals, too. Hard to imagine Ms. Knowles appearing in multiple videos shooting projectiles from her brassiere.
Rihanna's probably a better comparison.
Rihanna's probably a better comparison.
i don't think the artists pushing the low budget hip-hop like Gucci or Waka Flocka are really having much crossover appeal with a white demographic though (in the mainstream anyway. of course i am white and i do like them). critically acclaimed hip-hop from mainstream 'white outlets' is either of the lyrical, 'underground' nature which has a much jazzier sound, or high fidelity bombast like Kanye.
and by acclaimed i don't mean like positive reviews on Tiny Mix Tapes or even a B+ in Entertainment Weekly. i'm thinking more a general cultural buzz. you don't get that from too much hip-hop, and it always seems to be of the same stylistic variety. call it our post Jay-Z world.
and by acclaimed i don't mean like positive reviews on Tiny Mix Tapes or even a B+ in Entertainment Weekly. i'm thinking more a general cultural buzz. you don't get that from too much hip-hop, and it always seems to be of the same stylistic variety. call it our post Jay-Z world.
QUOTE (Duff. @ Jan 3 2011, 12:18 PM)
Hard to imagine Ms. Knowles appearing in multiple videos shooting projectiles from her brassiere.
this doesn't seem too far off to me
If by crossover you mean caucasian mothers like it, maybe.
that's actually not the worst baseline for what i'm talking about
QUOTE (Chronodiggity @ Jan 3 2011, 03:03 PM)
well the trend has definitely been away from highly visible, high budget art music.
take Taylor Swift for example. her music is both highly visible and high budget in terms of production and whatnot, but it makes no attempt to be evaluated on the same level as MBDTF. it is pure pop music for mass consumption through its marketing, despite perhaps having some artistic elements worth examining.
then we have something like Arcade Fire. in an article with the times as well, Win Butler said the band was hoping to achieve an "amateur sheen". while they have become a band that is highly visible, they shy away from sounding high budget because that's not 'indie'. 'serious music' that 'has a point' is supposed to sound like it came from a basement or was recorded in a Canadian church, not from a high tech studio in Hawaii. High Violet is another example of trying to surround your music with a dark, muted atmosphere so that you aren't perceived as 'bombastic and corny'.
to me this is somewhat of a racial issue. the history of black entertainers in America, and i'm speaking incredibly broadly and painting with equally broad strokes, has been pigeonholed into a minstrel tradition, or as clownish. black artists are expected to be more self-fascinated, more showy, and more 'out there'. the Anglo-American critical consensus is much less likely to disparage a black man for making an over-the-top, gaudy record. why does someone like Katy Perry, who is just making disposable pop music, feel so gross and classless, while Beyonce struts around with a robotic arm talking about 'single ladies' and everyone respects it? i'd have to use a lot more words to really get into the nuance of what i think Americans at large expect from artists of different races, but this is the gist. of course, Beyonce isn't just 'cool pop music' because she's black and Katy Perry 'uncool pop music' because she's white - there's a world of difference musically between the two - but it is an element of the disconnect.
take Taylor Swift for example. her music is both highly visible and high budget in terms of production and whatnot, but it makes no attempt to be evaluated on the same level as MBDTF. it is pure pop music for mass consumption through its marketing, despite perhaps having some artistic elements worth examining.
then we have something like Arcade Fire. in an article with the times as well, Win Butler said the band was hoping to achieve an "amateur sheen". while they have become a band that is highly visible, they shy away from sounding high budget because that's not 'indie'. 'serious music' that 'has a point' is supposed to sound like it came from a basement or was recorded in a Canadian church, not from a high tech studio in Hawaii. High Violet is another example of trying to surround your music with a dark, muted atmosphere so that you aren't perceived as 'bombastic and corny'.
to me this is somewhat of a racial issue. the history of black entertainers in America, and i'm speaking incredibly broadly and painting with equally broad strokes, has been pigeonholed into a minstrel tradition, or as clownish. black artists are expected to be more self-fascinated, more showy, and more 'out there'. the Anglo-American critical consensus is much less likely to disparage a black man for making an over-the-top, gaudy record. why does someone like Katy Perry, who is just making disposable pop music, feel so gross and classless, while Beyonce struts around with a robotic arm talking about 'single ladies' and everyone respects it? i'd have to use a lot more words to really get into the nuance of what i think Americans at large expect from artists of different races, but this is the gist. of course, Beyonce isn't just 'cool pop music' because she's black and Katy Perry 'uncool pop music' because she's white - there's a world of difference musically between the two - but it is an element of the disconnect.
chrono, i'm really glad you're raising these points. i disagree with you fairly strongly, but you're considering elements (the history of black entertainers, for example) that many over look in these kinds of debates. so kudos.
what i disagree with here is your assessment of the response to black artists. it happens across the board, from music, to literature, to film (to comedy, to television, to whateverelsehave you), that black artists are almost constantly ghettoized. for example, walk into a borders or a library and you will find an african american literature section, but no corresponding european american shelves. or think about tyler perry: he certainly doesn't do himself any favors, or try to break out of his lucrative closet, but his movies are discussed in bemused tones by non-blacks, as if not to be taken as seriously as other non-black directors. there have been times when rap is discussed within the mainstream of society in a way that displays a clear feeling of respect (in 2000 when stankonia came out, for one) but rap is overwhelmingly treated with apathy (or more bemusement) at best, revulsion at worst. giant panda might be joking (i can never tell with him), but he's alluding to something serious when comparing recent efforts by kanye and sufjan. both are making pop music. rap is too often kept separate from other genres and styles, when that segregation is unnatural, implying some sort of unity within rap that doesn't exist within other genres. rock can be lots of things, but only recently have we acknowledged that rap can be just as diverse.
in that sense mbdtf is a watershed moment, just not necessarily musically. i argued this in the kanye thread, but other rap artists have aimed to break out, like common with electric circus, and they failed creatively and financially. i'd argue that there has never been a rap album which has been treated with as much respect (and that includes serious criticisms of its flaws), by as many people, as it. sure that encourages these contrarian camps and pockets, people who say they're sick of kanye, that he's overrated. but that's what happens when you reach that level of success and respect.
i don't know if any of that was coherent. i'm mid-joint right now.
QUOTE (stephen thomas erlewine @ Jan 3 2011, 04:03 PM)
or think about tyler perry: he certainly doesn't do himself any favors, or try to break out of his lucrative closet, but his movies are discussed in bemused tones by non-blacks, as if not to be taken as seriously as other non-black directors.
I know you were just making a minor point to strengthen your other well-made points but c'mon. People don't take Tyler Perry seriously just like they don't take Brett Ratner seriously. He's a bad filmmaker who churns out bad films. Nothing to do with his race. If you were to use Spike Lee as an example then you might have a point, except Spike Lee is taken seriously.
QUOTE (Ogawa @ Jan 3 2011, 04:17 PM)
QUOTE (stephen thomas erlewine @ Jan 3 2011, 04:03 PM)
or think about tyler perry: he certainly doesn't do himself any favors, or try to break out of his lucrative closet, but his movies are discussed in bemused tones by non-blacks, as if not to be taken as seriously as other non-black directors.
I know you were just making a minor point to strengthen your other well-made points but c'mon. People don't take Tyler Perry seriously just like they don't take Brett Ratner seriously. He's a bad filmmaker who churns out bad films. Nothing to do with his race. If you were to use Spike Lee as an example then you might have a point, except Spike Lee is taken seriously.
i'm not saying that tyler perry isn't bad, just that the criticisms made of him by mainstream outlets are far less thorough than those made of ratner and his ilk. he's treated with curiosity and resignation, a sort of 'it's a black thing' kind of attitude, when in reality, he deserves the same probing scorn (and perhaps cultish admiration from certain corners) as other shitty directors.
QUOTE (stephen thomas erlewine @ Jan 3 2011, 04:22 PM)
QUOTE (Ogawa @ Jan 3 2011, 04:17 PM)
QUOTE (stephen thomas erlewine @ Jan 3 2011, 04:03 PM)
or think about tyler perry: he certainly doesn't do himself any favors, or try to break out of his lucrative closet, but his movies are discussed in bemused tones by non-blacks, as if not to be taken as seriously as other non-black directors.
I know you were just making a minor point to strengthen your other well-made points but c'mon. People don't take Tyler Perry seriously just like they don't take Brett Ratner seriously. He's a bad filmmaker who churns out bad films. Nothing to do with his race. If you were to use Spike Lee as an example then you might have a point, except Spike Lee is taken seriously.
i'm not saying that tyler perry isn't bad, just that the criticisms made of him by mainstream outlets are far less thorough than those made of ratner and his ilk. he's treated with curiosity and resignation, a sort of 'it's a black thing' kind of attitude, when in reality, he deserves the same probing scorn (and perhaps cultish admiration from certain corners) as other shitty directors.
I'm sure if Ratner had his name plastered all over his films ("Brett Ratner's Rush Hour 3" or "Brett Ratner's After The Sunset") then he'd probably receive similar treatment. Most bad directors go unnoticed cause no one really bothers to check the credits on their terrible films, but you can't miss Perry's name when you're watching a Perry film. I don't deny the "it must be a black thing" attitude, though. It's a silly cowardice on the part of white critics. What the take-home ought to be is that black people apparently like bad movies just as much as white people.
QUOTE (Chronodiggity @ Jan 3 2011, 12:03 PM)
why does someone like Katy Perry, who is just making disposable pop music, feel so gross and classless, while Beyonce struts around with a robotic arm talking about 'single ladies' and everyone respects it?
seems weird to compare the two when they're doing two very different things. sure they both appear on top 40 radio and are thus both 'pop' but otherwise? like, beyonce's pop is informed by way of r&b, a genre that, when it's not ignored altogether, has always been seen as classier and/or cooler than pop critic wise, no? perry on the other hand is much more populist and a part of the britney-teen-pop model, which sure is a much more critically denigrated model, but it's not cause it's adherents are all white. it's cause it's fans are thought to be teenage girls -- the horror!
really though, beyonce is just a lot better than katy perry
WHY DON'T PEOPLE TAKE THIS GUY SERIOUSLY?
QUOTE (stphone @ Jan 3 2011, 02:02 PM)
like, beyonce's pop is informed by way of r&b, a genre that, when it's not ignored altogether, has always been seen as classier and/or cooler than pop critic wise, no?
this is a key point that i agree with and i've been searching for an answer is to why this is. why is R&B influenced pop 'cooler' than rock/electro influenced pop? some of that to me is racial but i'm not sure how much.
QUOTE (stephen thomas erlewine @ Jan 3 2011, 01:03 PM)
QUOTE (Chronodiggity @ Jan 3 2011, 03:03 PM)
well the trend has definitely been away from highly visible, high budget art music.
take Taylor Swift for example. her music is both highly visible and high budget in terms of production and whatnot, but it makes no attempt to be evaluated on the same level as MBDTF. it is pure pop music for mass consumption through its marketing, despite perhaps having some artistic elements worth examining.
then we have something like Arcade Fire. in an article with the times as well, Win Butler said the band was hoping to achieve an "amateur sheen". while they have become a band that is highly visible, they shy away from sounding high budget because that's not 'indie'. 'serious music' that 'has a point' is supposed to sound like it came from a basement or was recorded in a Canadian church, not from a high tech studio in Hawaii. High Violet is another example of trying to surround your music with a dark, muted atmosphere so that you aren't perceived as 'bombastic and corny'.
to me this is somewhat of a racial issue. the history of black entertainers in America, and i'm speaking incredibly broadly and painting with equally broad strokes, has been pigeonholed into a minstrel tradition, or as clownish. black artists are expected to be more self-fascinated, more showy, and more 'out there'. the Anglo-American critical consensus is much less likely to disparage a black man for making an over-the-top, gaudy record. why does someone like Katy Perry, who is just making disposable pop music, feel so gross and classless, while Beyonce struts around with a robotic arm talking about 'single ladies' and everyone respects it? i'd have to use a lot more words to really get into the nuance of what i think Americans at large expect from artists of different races, but this is the gist. of course, Beyonce isn't just 'cool pop music' because she's black and Katy Perry 'uncool pop music' because she's white - there's a world of difference musically between the two - but it is an element of the disconnect.
take Taylor Swift for example. her music is both highly visible and high budget in terms of production and whatnot, but it makes no attempt to be evaluated on the same level as MBDTF. it is pure pop music for mass consumption through its marketing, despite perhaps having some artistic elements worth examining.
then we have something like Arcade Fire. in an article with the times as well, Win Butler said the band was hoping to achieve an "amateur sheen". while they have become a band that is highly visible, they shy away from sounding high budget because that's not 'indie'. 'serious music' that 'has a point' is supposed to sound like it came from a basement or was recorded in a Canadian church, not from a high tech studio in Hawaii. High Violet is another example of trying to surround your music with a dark, muted atmosphere so that you aren't perceived as 'bombastic and corny'.
to me this is somewhat of a racial issue. the history of black entertainers in America, and i'm speaking incredibly broadly and painting with equally broad strokes, has been pigeonholed into a minstrel tradition, or as clownish. black artists are expected to be more self-fascinated, more showy, and more 'out there'. the Anglo-American critical consensus is much less likely to disparage a black man for making an over-the-top, gaudy record. why does someone like Katy Perry, who is just making disposable pop music, feel so gross and classless, while Beyonce struts around with a robotic arm talking about 'single ladies' and everyone respects it? i'd have to use a lot more words to really get into the nuance of what i think Americans at large expect from artists of different races, but this is the gist. of course, Beyonce isn't just 'cool pop music' because she's black and Katy Perry 'uncool pop music' because she's white - there's a world of difference musically between the two - but it is an element of the disconnect.
chrono, i'm really glad you're raising these points. i disagree with you fairly strongly, but you're considering elements (the history of black entertainers, for example) that many over look in these kinds of debates. so kudos.
what i disagree with here is your assessment of the response to black artists. it happens across the board, from music, to literature, to film (to comedy, to television, to whateverelsehave you), that black artists are almost constantly ghettoized. for example, walk into a borders or a library and you will find an african american literature section, but no corresponding european american shelves. or think about tyler perry: he certainly doesn't do himself any favors, or try to break out of his lucrative closet, but his movies are discussed in bemused tones by non-blacks, as if not to be taken as seriously as other non-black directors. there have been times when rap is discussed within the mainstream of society in a way that displays a clear feeling of respect (in 2000 when stankonia came out, for one) but rap is overwhelmingly treated with apathy (or more bemusement) at best, revulsion at worst. giant panda might be joking (i can never tell with him), but he's alluding to something serious when comparing recent efforts by kanye and sufjan. both are making pop music. rap is too often kept separate from other genres and styles, when that segregation is unnatural, implying some sort of unity within rap that doesn't exist within other genres. rock can be lots of things, but only recently have we acknowledged that rap can be just as diverse.
in that sense mbdtf is a watershed moment, just not necessarily musically. i argued this in the kanye thread, but other rap artists have aimed to break out, like common with electric circus, and they failed creatively and financially. i'd argue that there has never been a rap album which has been treated with as much respect (and that includes serious criticisms of its flaws), by as many people, as it. sure that encourages these contrarian camps and pockets, people who say they're sick of kanye, that he's overrated. but that's what happens when you reach that level of success and respect.
i don't know if any of that was coherent. i'm mid-joint right now.
i'm having a hard time figuring out where we disagree on this, actually. my assessment of treating black artists as 'other' and thus 'allowing' them to get a different critical take is a result of the ghettoization of black arts, and perhaps even the notion that some art is black and other art is white.
to a sophisticated listener, yes, Kanye has made in a lot of ways a pop album. but to a very large group of people, that kind of distinction is sort of meaningless because he is rapping. an album that features raps by a black man is 'rap music' and thus gets different critical treatment. i think we're in agreeance on that.
QUOTE (Chronodiggity @ Jan 3 2011, 03:34 PM)
QUOTE (stphone @ Jan 3 2011, 02:02 PM)
like, beyonce's pop is informed by way of r&b, a genre that, when it's not ignored altogether, has always been seen as classier and/or cooler than pop critic wise, no?
this is a key point that i agree with and i've been searching for an answer is to why this is. why is R&B influenced pop 'cooler' than rock/electro influenced pop? some of that to me is racial but i'm not sure how much.
Liking untalented white broads with boobs is uncultured, but liking black girls with boobs makes you diverse?
Snarkiness aside, yeah... it's.a tough question for me to answer as well. I sort of think it's at least 51% racial, but my head hurts. And I just think Beyonce's better in this specific case.
And back on the OP/Kanye argument, I think the "critical consensus" thing is the big point. Celebrity/art rap/pop album. I don't know what else would fit into this category, and I thin that this dipping into a whole bunch of genres and arguably even creating its own is a big reason this album is being seen this way.
Yeah, you can argue that the guy in the article's basically just saying "I really love this record but hate-hate-hate..." but I like the way he made me think about the whole to do a bit more from that angle.
Drunk. Sorry.
Yeah, you can argue that the guy in the article's basically just saying "I really love this record but hate-hate-hate..." but I like the way he made me think about the whole to do a bit more from that angle.
Drunk. Sorry.
QUOTE (Chronodiggity @ Jan 3 2011, 02:21 PM)
QUOTE (Duff. @ Jan 3 2011, 12:18 PM)
Hard to imagine Ms. Knowles appearing in multiple videos shooting projectiles from her brassiere.
this doesn't seem too far off to me
I turn around for two seconds.
Seems largely Playing Catch Up, Or Beyonce In GagaLand. In any case, off the top of my head Mariah Carey is a black pop/R&B singer who crossed that sweet/slutty liminal a little over a decade ago.
And for the record, in that video Beyonce's shooting projectiles from her dick.
Public Enemy were critical darlings but weren't terribly self-aggrandizing. Yes, Flavor Flav was clownish, but he was a foil to Chuck D.'s inscrutable focus.
I actually find Kanye's braggadocio to be kind of unprecedented.
to Chrono's larger point: yeah, I do think there are some self-reinforcing positions between artists and critics (or audiences) that can grow outsize.
I actually find Kanye's braggadocio to be kind of unprecedented.
to Chrono's larger point: yeah, I do think there are some self-reinforcing positions between artists and critics (or audiences) that can grow outsize.
QUOTE (theminimumcircus @ Jan 4 2011, 01:56 AM)
I actually find Kanye's braggadocio to be kind of unprecedented.
Possibly?
Maybe less verbally explicit "braggadocio" but probably as bombastically self conscious about being the BIGGEST THING EVER (of its time)
QUOTE (stephen thomas erlewine @ Jan 3 2011, 05:03 PM)
QUOTE (Chronodiggity @ Jan 3 2011, 03:03 PM)
well the trend has definitely been away from highly visible, high budget art music.
take Taylor Swift for example. her music is both highly visible and high budget in terms of production and whatnot, but it makes no attempt to be evaluated on the same level as MBDTF. it is pure pop music for mass consumption through its marketing, despite perhaps having some artistic elements worth examining.
then we have something like Arcade Fire. in an article with the times as well, Win Butler said the band was hoping to achieve an "amateur sheen". while they have become a band that is highly visible, they shy away from sounding high budget because that's not 'indie'. 'serious music' that 'has a point' is supposed to sound like it came from a basement or was recorded in a Canadian church, not from a high tech studio in Hawaii. High Violet is another example of trying to surround your music with a dark, muted atmosphere so that you aren't perceived as 'bombastic and corny'.
to me this is somewhat of a racial issue. the history of black entertainers in America, and i'm speaking incredibly broadly and painting with equally broad strokes, has been pigeonholed into a minstrel tradition, or as clownish. black artists are expected to be more self-fascinated, more showy, and more 'out there'. the Anglo-American critical consensus is much less likely to disparage a black man for making an over-the-top, gaudy record. why does someone like Katy Perry, who is just making disposable pop music, feel so gross and classless, while Beyonce struts around with a robotic arm talking about 'single ladies' and everyone respects it? i'd have to use a lot more words to really get into the nuance of what i think Americans at large expect from artists of different races, but this is the gist. of course, Beyonce isn't just 'cool pop music' because she's black and Katy Perry 'uncool pop music' because she's white - there's a world of difference musically between the two - but it is an element of the disconnect.
take Taylor Swift for example. her music is both highly visible and high budget in terms of production and whatnot, but it makes no attempt to be evaluated on the same level as MBDTF. it is pure pop music for mass consumption through its marketing, despite perhaps having some artistic elements worth examining.
then we have something like Arcade Fire. in an article with the times as well, Win Butler said the band was hoping to achieve an "amateur sheen". while they have become a band that is highly visible, they shy away from sounding high budget because that's not 'indie'. 'serious music' that 'has a point' is supposed to sound like it came from a basement or was recorded in a Canadian church, not from a high tech studio in Hawaii. High Violet is another example of trying to surround your music with a dark, muted atmosphere so that you aren't perceived as 'bombastic and corny'.
to me this is somewhat of a racial issue. the history of black entertainers in America, and i'm speaking incredibly broadly and painting with equally broad strokes, has been pigeonholed into a minstrel tradition, or as clownish. black artists are expected to be more self-fascinated, more showy, and more 'out there'. the Anglo-American critical consensus is much less likely to disparage a black man for making an over-the-top, gaudy record. why does someone like Katy Perry, who is just making disposable pop music, feel so gross and classless, while Beyonce struts around with a robotic arm talking about 'single ladies' and everyone respects it? i'd have to use a lot more words to really get into the nuance of what i think Americans at large expect from artists of different races, but this is the gist. of course, Beyonce isn't just 'cool pop music' because she's black and Katy Perry 'uncool pop music' because she's white - there's a world of difference musically between the two - but it is an element of the disconnect.
chrono, i'm really glad you're raising these points. i disagree with you fairly strongly, but you're considering elements (the history of black entertainers, for example) that many over look in these kinds of debates. so kudos.
what i disagree with here is your assessment of the response to black artists. it happens across the board, from music, to literature, to film (to comedy, to television, to whateverelsehave you), that black artists are almost constantly ghettoized. for example, walk into a borders or a library and you will find an african american literature section, but no corresponding european american shelves. or think about tyler perry: he certainly doesn't do himself any favors, or try to break out of his lucrative closet, but his movies are discussed in bemused tones by non-blacks, as if not to be taken as seriously as other non-black directors. there have been times when rap is discussed within the mainstream of society in a way that displays a clear feeling of respect (in 2000 when stankonia came out, for one) but rap is overwhelmingly treated with apathy (or more bemusement) at best, revulsion at worst. giant panda might be joking (i can never tell with him), but he's alluding to something serious when comparing recent efforts by kanye and sufjan. both are making pop music. rap is too often kept separate from other genres and styles, when that segregation is unnatural, implying some sort of unity within rap that doesn't exist within other genres. rock can be lots of things, but only recently have we acknowledged that rap can be just as diverse.
in that sense mbdtf is a watershed moment, just not necessarily musically. i argued this in the kanye thread, but other rap artists have aimed to break out, like common with electric circus, and they failed creatively and financially. i'd argue that there has never been a rap album which has been treated with as much respect (and that includes serious criticisms of its flaws), by as many people, as it. sure that encourages these contrarian camps and pockets, people who say they're sick of kanye, that he's overrated. but that's what happens when you reach that level of success and respect.
i don't know if any of that was coherent. i'm mid-joint right now.
QUOTE (stphone @ Jan 3 2011, 06:02 PM)
QUOTE (Chronodiggity @ Jan 3 2011, 12:03 PM)
why does someone like Katy Perry, who is just making disposable pop music, feel so gross and classless, while Beyonce struts around with a robotic arm talking about 'single ladies' and everyone respects it?
seems weird to compare the two when they're doing two very different things. sure they both appear on top 40 radio and are thus both 'pop' but otherwise? like, beyonce's pop is informed by way of r&b, a genre that, when it's not ignored altogether, has always been seen as classier and/or cooler than pop critic wise, no? perry on the other hand is much more populist and a part of the britney-teen-pop model, which sure is a much more critically denigrated model, but it's not cause it's adherents are all white. it's cause it's fans are thought to be teenage girls -- the horror!
really though, beyonce is just a lot better than katy perry
Lady Gaga is taken very seriously as well. britney is taken seriously by poptimists. Robyn? there is going to be some revisionism on Katy Perry though i think as far as pop goes, she is terrific. i see a lot of white feminists like Ann Powers of the LA Times, really a great and very open minded writer, kind of slam her a lot which is weird to me. I think Ann sees her as trumpeting misogynist ideas but from a female perspective.
Britney has a lot more credibility than Katy Perry will ever have.
She was a mousketeer you know.
She was a mousketeer you know.
Never listened to a Kanye album, before yesterday. The TV promotions I saw, for this album, were a bit off putting.
I just DL’ed his latest, it is really good. Would have made my top 10 for ’10 if I’d heard it a month or two ago.
I just DL’ed his latest, it is really good. Would have made my top 10 for ’10 if I’d heard it a month or two ago.
http://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive...e-devils/68822/
here is another interesting take. again, i dont agree with everything he says, but like nytimes people have thought about it a lot more and just interesting to see their views.
here is another interesting take. again, i dont agree with everything he says, but like nytimes people have thought about it a lot more and just interesting to see their views.
It will be interesting to see what influence, if any, Russell Brand has on Katy Perry's career direction. Brand is a VERY smart writer, and Perry's schtick hosting MTV award shows in Europe suggested maybe she could handle comedic or singing and dancing roles on screen. What IS her background? On chat shows she seems very professional beneath the fun veneer so what's her training? I'd suggest any revisionism will largely be based on what's to follow rather than what's gone before. Brand has worked his way in with that whole Judd Apatow bandwagon, hasn't he. I get the sense the Perry you see is slickly taking care of business, rather than putting out a full on persona. I suppose that's an interesting contradiction, whether you see more of Perry or Gaga when they're doing the rounds, and what more either of them would have to give to the right project.
QUOTE (Giant Panda @ Jan 3 2011, 02:33 PM)
Impossible Soul deserved more attention than the Kanye record IMHO and I'd argue they're of the same genre.
Jesus - at least as much attention. Silly shit. Sick world we're living in.
edit: I should stress that I don't give much of a damn about either one.
Wow chrono. excellent articulation of my same feelings. i must say, i don't like it one bit. it makes me want to take a minigun to the critics, but they aren't individually responsible. there's this gigantic collective unconscious that dictates things and it seems that it is doing exactly what you described. i've seen it happen with my own eyes, to this day. those people shouldn't be generalized for all people.
as you can see i can't articulate as well as you, but i feel the same, i'm sure.
it's going to take artists from both sides of the road to clear this gap.
we should look back fondly on such masterpieces as Beck's Midnite Vultures and on such geniuses as Albarn, Mos Def, and Doom. These are our heroes.
the critics are basically like a giant capitalist roadblock. i've been trying to stress this point for a while but it's difficult for me even to understand what i'm trying to say. i do think that these websites and cultural fascists need to have their power stripped away violently so we can move on to a more understanding form of art appreciation.
as you can see i can't articulate as well as you, but i feel the same, i'm sure.
it's going to take artists from both sides of the road to clear this gap.
we should look back fondly on such masterpieces as Beck's Midnite Vultures and on such geniuses as Albarn, Mos Def, and Doom. These are our heroes.
the critics are basically like a giant capitalist roadblock. i've been trying to stress this point for a while but it's difficult for me even to understand what i'm trying to say. i do think that these websites and cultural fascists need to have their power stripped away violently so we can move on to a more understanding form of art appreciation.
this is the kind of robust discussion i plan to try and instigate more in 2011 on the SOMB. getting beneath the surface of "i like this" or "i don't like this" to the nuts and bolts of how and why. not to suggest i have the answers or am right about anything but it's what i find most interesting.
QUOTE (Jigga @ Jan 4 2011, 08:50 AM)
http://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive...e-devils/68822/
here is another interesting take. again, i dont agree with everything he says, but like nytimes people have thought about it a lot more and just interesting to see their views.
here is another interesting take. again, i dont agree with everything he says, but like nytimes people have thought about it a lot more and just interesting to see their views.
sort of a chore of a piece. most of his criticism is pretty touchy feely and is thus pretty hard to argue with. a quote like this:
QUOTE
No, seriously. Paying Chris Rock to play the cuckolder and yell, "Yeeze reupholstered my pussy," is not a stroke of genius, it's a lack of artistic courage. It means even on arguably the most emotionally painful cut, you're not convinced that the song can stand on its own.
is something i disagree with, but that's just a personal emotion he has while listening it that i can't really cut down. overall though he seems to be cherry-picking to the extreme. how could you say something like this having heard "Runaway"?
QUOTE
More likely, I'm tired of rappers who deploy slut-shame to smoke-screen their near total fear of pussy.
one of the main themes of the album is fearing women! Kanye going back and forth between "i'm not too good with females" and "put the pussy in a sarcophagus" isn't hypocrisy as much as conflict, which he just dismisses as:
QUOTE
It's the work of a failed provocateur boorishly brandishing his ancient affects.
dig a little deeper, bro.
Consensus albums are considered that for a reason: because they've reached a wide range of people. Is it that farfetched for an album by one of the world's biggest stars to be so well-liked by a whole lot of people? It certainly ensures that a lot of folks will have heard it. These are facts of life. It's really nothing new. It just seems like Carmanica is upset that someone else wasn't the popular pick for 2010.
QUOTE (Chronodiggity @ Jan 3 2011, 02:34 PM)
QUOTE (stphone @ Jan 3 2011, 02:02 PM)
like, beyonce's pop is informed by way of r&b, a genre that, when it's not ignored altogether, has always been seen as classier and/or cooler than pop critic wise, no?
this is a key point that i agree with and i've been searching for an answer is to why this is. why is R&B influenced pop 'cooler' than rock/electro influenced pop? some of that to me is racial but i'm not sure how much.
see, this gets a little tricky. i mean, for one, not everyone agrees that r&b is cool -- like a lot of people think it's kinda lame. or it's just ignored altogether as a genre -- by critics too! but for those that do think it's cooler than rock, it's probably some mix of a few things: 1.) they probably just like it better, 2.) they prefer r&b aesthetics to rock aesthetics, 3.) their friends listen to it a lot, 4.) it's seen as less 'mainstream' (or as more mainstream), 5.) in an internet age where everything is available, creating a 'personal brand' involves reaching into other genres (and other narcissism of small differences stuff), 6.) urban city dwellers usually decide what's cool these days, and r&b, these days, is more urban than rock, and so on. of course race is involved too, but really when is it not?
QUOTE (Jigga @ Jan 4 2011, 08:21 AM)
QUOTE (stphone @ Jan 3 2011, 06:02 PM)
QUOTE (Chronodiggity @ Jan 3 2011, 12:03 PM)
why does someone like Katy Perry, who is just making disposable pop music, feel so gross and classless, while Beyonce struts around with a robotic arm talking about 'single ladies' and everyone respects it?
seems weird to compare the two when they're doing two very different things. sure they both appear on top 40 radio and are thus both 'pop' but otherwise? like, beyonce's pop is informed by way of r&b, a genre that, when it's not ignored altogether, has always been seen as classier and/or cooler than pop critic wise, no? perry on the other hand is much more populist and a part of the britney-teen-pop model, which sure is a much more critically denigrated model, but it's not cause it's adherents are all white. it's cause it's fans are thought to be teenage girls -- the horror!
really though, beyonce is just a lot better than katy perry
Lady Gaga is taken very seriously as well. britney is taken seriously by poptimists. Robyn? there is going to be some revisionism on Katy Perry though i think as far as pop goes, she is terrific. i see a lot of white feminists like Ann Powers of the LA Times, really a great and very open minded writer, kind of slam her a lot which is weird to me. I think Ann sees her as trumpeting misogynist ideas but from a female perspective.
i agree
QUOTE (Chronodiggity @ Jan 4 2011, 04:22 PM)
QUOTE (Jigga @ Jan 4 2011, 08:50 AM)
http://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive...e-devils/68822/
here is another interesting take. again, i dont agree with everything he says, but like nytimes people have thought about it a lot more and just interesting to see their views.
here is another interesting take. again, i dont agree with everything he says, but like nytimes people have thought about it a lot more and just interesting to see their views.
sort of a chore of a piece. most of his criticism is pretty touchy feely and is thus pretty hard to argue with. a quote like this:
QUOTE
No, seriously. Paying Chris Rock to play the cuckolder and yell, "Yeeze reupholstered my pussy," is not a stroke of genius, it's a lack of artistic courage. It means even on arguably the most emotionally painful cut, you're not convinced that the song can stand on its own.
is something i disagree with, but that's just a personal emotion he has while listening it that i can't really cut down. overall though he seems to be cherry-picking to the extreme. how could you say something like this having heard "Runaway"?
QUOTE
More likely, I'm tired of rappers who deploy slut-shame to smoke-screen their near total fear of pussy.
one of the main themes of the album is fearing women! Kanye going back and forth between "i'm not too good with females" and "put the pussy in a sarcophagus" isn't hypocrisy as much as conflict, which he just dismisses as:
QUOTE
It's the work of a failed provocateur boorishly brandishing his ancient affects.
dig a little deeper, bro.
QUOTE (Jigga @ Jan 5 2011, 02:21 AM)
QUOTE (stphone @ Jan 3 2011, 06:02 PM)
QUOTE (Chronodiggity @ Jan 3 2011, 12:03 PM)
why does someone like Katy Perry, who is just making disposable pop music, feel so gross and classless, while Beyonce struts around with a robotic arm talking about 'single ladies' and everyone respects it?
seems weird to compare the two when they're doing two very different things. sure they both appear on top 40 radio and are thus both 'pop' but otherwise? like, beyonce's pop is informed by way of r&b, a genre that, when it's not ignored altogether, has always been seen as classier and/or cooler than pop critic wise, no? perry on the other hand is much more populist and a part of the britney-teen-pop model, which sure is a much more critically denigrated model, but it's not cause it's adherents are all white. it's cause it's fans are thought to be teenage girls -- the horror!
really though, beyonce is just a lot better than katy perry
Lady Gaga is taken very seriously as well. britney is taken seriously by poptimists. Robyn? there is going to be some revisionism on Katy Perry though i think as far as pop goes, she is terrific. i see a lot of white feminists like Ann Powers of the LA Times, really a great and very open minded writer, kind of slam her a lot which is weird to me. I think Ann sees her as trumpeting misogynist ideas but from a female perspective.
And then there's Ke$ha, who personally I find the best of all of the mainstream synthpop girls, and who is almost certainly the most misunderstood.
QUOTE (demoncleaner @ Jan 4 2011, 11:08 AM)
QUOTE (theminimumcircus @ Jan 4 2011, 01:56 AM)
I actually find Kanye's braggadocio to be kind of unprecedented.
Possibly?
Maybe less verbally explicit "braggadocio" but probably as bombastically self conscious about being the BIGGEST THING EVER (of its time)
I failed to explain my use of "unprecedented": I meant specifically vis. a hip hop persona. But yeah, your example fits in the global sense.
apparently kanye annouced on NYE in vegas that watch the throne will be out next week. not much a story linked below, but that's enough to make me excited.
http://www.billboard.com/column/the-juice/...004137691.story
http://www.billboard.com/column/the-juice/...004137691.story
Axl Rose is a good reference point. But I dunno, off the top of my head Nas and Sean Combs have placed themselves in Christ-like figure roles, and Jay-Z's been calling himself Hova for like a decade now, and none of those dudes in their entire careers have shown the amount of self-doubt Kanye does in any given track. Think its a question of style more than anything else.
Interested in your defense. I can't see a single reason this person should be on the radio.
QUOTE (monotony @ Jan 4 2011, 06:19 PM)
And then there's Ke$ha, who personally I find the best of all of the mainstream synthpop girls, and who is almost certainly the most misunderstood.
Interested in your defense. I can't see a single reason this person should be on the radio.
QUOTE
ay-Z's been calling himself Hova for like a decade now, and none of those dudes in their entire careers have shown the amount of self-doubt Kanye does in any given track.
Disagree with that; listen to 'Soon You'll Understand' and tell me Jay-Z doesn't show self doubt and angst in regard to relationships...
You deserve better - this is ugly; Gina, please don't love me
There's better guys out there other than me
Like a lawyer, a doctor with a PHD
You're my best friend's sister, grown woman and all
But you see how I am around girls; I ruin 'em all
Or even something like 'Song Cry', where the entire sentiment is that he can't get emotion out in real life so he has to convey it through a song...
I can understand why you want a divorce now
Though I can't let you know it, pride won't let me show it
Pretend to be heroic, that's just one to grow with
But deep inside a nigga so sick
Kanye certainly isn't the first guy to show self doubt on his records, though he might be the best at it.
QUOTE (Duff. @ Jan 6 2011, 02:42 AM)
QUOTE (monotony @ Jan 4 2011, 06:19 PM)
And then there's Ke$ha, who personally I find the best of all of the mainstream synthpop girls, and who is almost certainly the most misunderstood.
Interested in your defense. I can't see a single reason this person should be on the radio.
My defence is grounded almost solely in the fact that Ke$ha has about 100 demos that have leaked intermittently over the past year, and most of which are better than her officially released material. Girl is prolific. She writes pretty much all of it herself as well. I think people dismiss her as "the trashy rubbish one" which is kind of unfair as there's a fair bit of sass to her material, a lot of it is actually quite entertaining and she can write a one-liner almost as well as Lily Allen. A lot of people find her direct lyrics and ostensible simplicity obnoxious and off-putting, but I think that's kind of the point, she's in your face and aware of it. There is no pretense and she doesn't try hard to place herself as a total weirdo like Gaga does which I find bizarre considering her material is just unspectacular electropop. Musically Ke$ha really isn't too different from Katy or Rihanna or even Gaga, despite the pervasive sentiment being that Ke$ha is "ruining pop music" whereas the others (particularly the latter) are "saving it"
also she does ballads. some of them are really nice and affecting in the way that mainstream pop ballads can be nice and affecting.
I get the feeling that people that hate on Ke$ha have only heard "TiK ToK" and maybe "Blah Blah Blah". TiK ToK is a by-the-numbers Dr Luke joint, nothing particularly special. Blah Blah Blah is quite probably the worst song in her catalogue.
If she'd released some of these songs properly instead then I think the opinion on her might be slightly different.
hxxp://www.megaupload.com/?d=O4XIP5NY
tracks on this:
the best of which are probably Trashy Boy, Lost Weekend, and Disgusting
Having said all that, can see why people hate her and if you do that's fine, and I don't expect to be changing many SOMB minds on the matter any time soon.
QUOTE (monotony @ Jan 6 2011, 09:05 PM)
QUOTE (Duff. @ Jan 6 2011, 02:42 AM)
QUOTE (monotony @ Jan 4 2011, 06:19 PM)
And then there's Ke$ha, who personally I find the best of all of the mainstream synthpop girls, and who is almost certainly the most misunderstood.
Interested in your defense. I can't see a single reason this person should be on the radio.
My defence is grounded almost solely in the fact that Ke$ha has about 100 demos that have leaked intermittently over the past year, and most of which are better than her officially released material. Girl is prolific. She writes pretty much all of it herself as well. I think people dismiss her as "the trashy rubbish one" which is kind of unfair as there's a fair bit of sass to her material, a lot of it is actually quite entertaining and she can write a one-liner almost as well as Lily Allen. A lot of people find her direct lyrics and ostensible simplicity obnoxious and off-putting, but I think that's kind of the point, she's in your face and aware of it. There is no pretense and she doesn't try hard to place herself as a total weirdo like Gaga does which I find bizarre considering her material is just unspectacular electropop. Musically Ke$ha really isn't too different from Katy or Rihanna or even Gaga, despite the pervasive sentiment being that Ke$ha is "ruining pop music" whereas the others (particularly the latter) are "saving it"
also she does ballads. some of them are really nice and affecting in the way that mainstream pop ballads can be nice and affecting.
I get the feeling that people that hate on Ke$ha have only heard "TiK ToK" and maybe "Blah Blah Blah". TiK ToK is a by-the-numbers Dr Luke joint, nothing particularly special. Blah Blah Blah is quite probably the worst song in her catalogue.
If she'd released some of these songs properly instead then I think the opinion on her might be slightly different.
hxxp://www.megaupload.com/?d=O4XIP5NY
tracks on this:
the best of which are probably Trashy Boy, Lost Weekend, and Disgusting
Having said all that, can see why people hate her and if you do that's fine, and I don't expect to be changing many SOMB minds on the matter any time soon.
thats a great defense. i cant say anything on kesha cause i have heard the 2 or 3 songs everyone has heard, so just as its unfair to judge artists whoe careers on 2 or 3 songs,the way hip hop used to be judged, its unfair as well with kesha.
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