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I'd be inclined to dismiss this as pre-emptive smoke-blowing by doves/dissidents in the State Dept, CIA, or the broader 'intelligence' community were it not for the fact that Hersh has sourced a LOT of people spread across numerous agencies, including Defense. Check out the part about using a tactical nuke to bust bunkers and the threat of generals on the Joint Chiefs to resign if that plan is pursued. Nice. Also, deja vu all over again with credulous 'vetting' by select Senate committee. When will those idiots learn? And f-u-n quotes from various spooks who claim that Ahmenijad (sp?) is a complete wackjob.

Maybe it's me, but this is really spooky stuff (even if it is inoperable from a political standpoint...and maybe that does raise the likelihood that this was a choreographed series of leaks/off-the-record convos designed to signal the administration's desire to confront the threat militarily...thereby causing Iran to blink).

Full piece from the NY'er follows...

QUOTE
THE IRAN PLANS
by SEYMOUR M. HERSH
Would President Bush go to war to stop Tehran from getting the bomb?
Issue of 2006-04-17
Posted 2006-04-08

The Bush Administration, while publicly advocating diplomacy in order to stop Iran from pursuing a nuclear weapon, has increased clandestine activities inside Iran and intensified planning for a possible major air attack. Current and former American military and intelligence officials said that Air Force planning groups are drawing up lists of targets, and teams of American combat troops have been ordered into Iran, under cover, to collect targeting data and to establish contact with anti-government ethnic-minority groups. The officials say that President Bush is determined to deny the Iranian regime the opportunity to begin a pilot program, planned for this spring, to enrich uranium.

American and European intelligence agencies, and the International Atomic Energy Agency (I.A.E.A.), agree that Iran is intent on developing the capability to produce nuclear weapons. But there are widely differing estimates of how long that will take, and whether diplomacy, sanctions, or military action is the best way to prevent it. Iran insists that its research is for peaceful use only, in keeping with the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, and that it will not be delayed or deterred.

There is a growing conviction among members of the United States military, and in the international community, that President Bush’s ultimate goal in the nuclear confrontation with Iran is regime change. Iran’s President, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, has challenged the reality of the Holocaust and said that Israel must be “wiped off the map.” Bush and others in the White House view him as a potential Adolf Hitler, a former senior intelligence official said. “That’s the name they’re using. They say, ‘Will Iran get a strategic weapon and threaten another world war?’ ”

A government consultant with close ties to the civilian leadership in the Pentagon said that Bush was “absolutely convinced that Iran is going to get the bomb” if it is not stopped. He said that the President believes that he must do “what no Democrat or Republican, if elected in the future, would have the courage to do,” and “that saving Iran is going to be his legacy.”

One former defense official, who still deals with sensitive issues for the Bush Administration, told me that the military planning was premised on a belief that “a sustained bombing campaign in Iran will humiliate the religious leadership and lead the public to rise up and overthrow the government.” He added, “I was shocked when I heard it, and asked myself, ‘What are they smoking?’ ”

The rationale for regime change was articulated in early March by Patrick Clawson, an Iran expert who is the deputy director for research at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy and who has been a supporter of President Bush. “So long as Iran has an Islamic republic, it will have a nuclear-weapons program, at least clandestinely,” Clawson told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on March 2nd. “The key issue, therefore, is: How long will the present Iranian regime last?”

When I spoke to Clawson, he emphasized that “this Administration is putting a lot of effort into diplomacy.” However, he added, Iran had no choice other than to accede to America’s demands or face a military attack. Clawson said that he fears that Ahmadinejad “sees the West as wimps and thinks we will eventually cave in. We have to be ready to deal with Iran if the crisis escalates.” Clawson said that he would prefer to rely on sabotage and other clandestine activities, such as “industrial accidents.” But, he said, it would be prudent to prepare for a wider war, “given the way the Iranians are acting. This is not like planning to invade Quebec.”

One military planner told me that White House criticisms of Iran and the high tempo of planning and clandestine activities amount to a campaign of “coercion” aimed at Iran. “You have to be ready to go, and we’ll see how they respond,” the officer said. “You have to really show a threat in order to get Ahmadinejad to back down.” He added, “People think Bush has been focussed on Saddam Hussein since 9/11,” but, “in my view, if you had to name one nation that was his focus all the way along, it was Iran.” (In response to detailed requests for comment, the White House said that it would not comment on military planning but added, “As the President has indicated, we are pursuing a diplomatic solution”; the Defense Department also said that Iran was being dealt with through “diplomatic channels” but wouldn’t elaborate on that; the C.I.A. said that there were “inaccuracies” in this account but would not specify them.)

“This is much more than a nuclear issue,” one high-ranking diplomat told me in Vienna. “That’s just a rallying point, and there is still time to fix it. But the Administration believes it cannot be fixed unless they control the hearts and minds of Iran. The real issue is who is going to control the Middle East and its oil in the next ten years.”

A senior Pentagon adviser on the war on terror expressed a similar view. “This White House believes that the only way to solve the problem is to change the power structure in Iran, and that means war,” he said. The danger, he said, was that “it also reinforces the belief inside Iran that the only way to defend the country is to have a nuclear capability.” A military conflict that destabilized the region could also increase the risk of terror: “Hezbollah comes into play,” the adviser said, referring to the terror group that is considered one of the world’s most successful, and which is now a Lebanese political party with strong ties to Iran. “And here comes Al Qaeda.”

In recent weeks, the President has quietly initiated a series of talks on plans for Iran with a few key senators and members of Congress, including at least one Democrat. A senior member of the House Appropriations Committee, who did not take part in the meetings but has discussed their content with his colleagues, told me that there had been “no formal briefings,” because “they’re reluctant to brief the minority. They’re doing the Senate, somewhat selectively.”

The House member said that no one in the meetings “is really objecting” to the talk of war. “The people they’re briefing are the same ones who led the charge on Iraq. At most, questions are raised: How are you going to hit all the sites at once? How are you going to get deep enough?” (Iran is building facilities underground.) “There’s no pressure from Congress” not to take military action, the House member added. “The only political pressure is from the guys who want to do it.” Speaking of President Bush, the House member said, “The most worrisome thing is that this guy has a messianic vision.”

Some operations, apparently aimed in part at intimidating Iran, are already under way. American Naval tactical aircraft, operating from carriers in the Arabian Sea, have been flying simulated nuclear-weapons delivery missions—rapid ascending maneuvers known as “over the shoulder” bombing—since last summer, the former official said, within range of Iranian coastal radars.

Last month, in a paper given at a conference on Middle East security in Berlin, Colonel Sam Gardiner, a military analyst who taught at the National War College before retiring from the Air Force, in 1987, provided an estimate of what would be needed to destroy Iran’s nuclear program. Working from satellite photographs of the known facilities, Gardiner estimated that at least four hundred targets would have to be hit. He added:

I don’t think a U.S. military planner would want to stop there. Iran probably has two chemical-production plants. We would hit those. We would want to hit the medium-range ballistic missiles that have just recently been moved closer to Iraq. There are fourteen airfields with sheltered aircraft. . . . We’d want to get rid of that threat. We would want to hit the assets that could be used to threaten Gulf shipping. That means targeting the cruise-missile sites and the Iranian diesel submarines. . . . Some of the facilities may be too difficult to target even with penetrating weapons. The U.S. will have to use Special Operations units.

One of the military’s initial option plans, as presented to the White House by the Pentagon this winter, calls for the use of a bunker-buster tactical nuclear weapon, such as the B61-11, against underground nuclear sites. One target is Iran’s main centrifuge plant, at Natanz, nearly two hundred miles south of Tehran. Natanz, which is no longer under I.A.E.A. safeguards, reportedly has underground floor space to hold fifty thousand centrifuges, and laboratories and workspaces buried approximately seventy-five feet beneath the surface. That number of centrifuges could provide enough enriched uranium for about twenty nuclear warheads a year. (Iran has acknowledged that it initially kept the existence of its enrichment program hidden from I.A.E.A. inspectors, but claims that none of its current activity is barred by the Non-Proliferation Treaty.) The elimination of Natanz would be a major setback for Iran’s nuclear ambitions, but the conventional weapons in the American arsenal could not insure the destruction of facilities under seventy-five feet of earth and rock, especially if they are reinforced with concrete.

There is a Cold War precedent for targeting deep underground bunkers with nuclear weapons. In the early nineteen-eighties, the American intelligence community watched as the Soviet government began digging a huge underground complex outside Moscow. Analysts concluded that the underground facility was designed for “continuity of government”—for the political and military leadership to survive a nuclear war. (There are similar facilities, in Virginia and Pennsylvania, for the American leadership.) The Soviet facility still exists, and much of what the U.S. knows about it remains classified. “The ‘tell’ ”—the giveaway—“was the ventilator shafts, some of which were disguised,” the former senior intelligence official told me. At the time, he said, it was determined that “only nukes” could destroy the bunker. He added that some American intelligence analysts believe that the Russians helped the Iranians design their underground facility. “We see a similarity of design,” specifically in the ventilator shafts, he said.

A former high-level Defense Department official told me that, in his view, even limited bombing would allow the U.S. to “go in there and do enough damage to slow down the nuclear infrastructure—it’s feasible.” The former defense official said, “The Iranians don’t have friends, and we can tell them that, if necessary, we’ll keep knocking back their infrastructure. The United States should act like we’re ready to go.” He added, “We don’t have to knock down all of their air defenses. Our stealth bombers and standoff missiles really work, and we can blow fixed things up. We can do things on the ground, too, but it’s difficult and very dangerous—put bad stuff in ventilator shafts and put them to sleep.”

But those who are familiar with the Soviet bunker, according to the former senior intelligence official, “say ‘No way.’ You’ve got to know what’s underneath—to know which ventilator feeds people, or diesel generators, or which are false. And there’s a lot that we don’t know.” The lack of reliable intelligence leaves military planners, given the goal of totally destroying the sites, little choice but to consider the use of tactical nuclear weapons. “Every other option, in the view of the nuclear weaponeers, would leave a gap,” the former senior intelligence official said. “ ‘Decisive’ is the key word of the Air Force’s planning. It’s a tough decision. But we made it in Japan.”

He went on, “Nuclear planners go through extensive training and learn the technical details of damage and fallout—we’re talking about mushroom clouds, radiation, mass casualties, and contamination over years. This is not an underground nuclear test, where all you see is the earth raised a little bit. These politicians don’t have a clue, and whenever anybody tries to get it out”—remove the nuclear option—“they’re shouted down.”

The attention given to the nuclear option has created serious misgivings inside the offices of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, he added, and some officers have talked about resigning. Late this winter, the Joint Chiefs of Staff sought to remove the nuclear option from the evolving war plans for Iran—without success, the former intelligence official said. “The White House said, ‘Why are you challenging this? The option came from you.’ ”

The Pentagon adviser on the war on terror confirmed that some in the Administration were looking seriously at this option, which he linked to a resurgence of interest in tactical nuclear weapons among Pentagon civilians and in policy circles. He called it “a juggernaut that has to be stopped.” He also confirmed that some senior officers and officials were considering resigning over the issue. “There are very strong sentiments within the military against brandishing nuclear weapons against other countries,” the adviser told me. “This goes to high levels.” The matter may soon reach a decisive point, he said, because the Joint Chiefs had agreed to give President Bush a formal recommendation stating that they are strongly opposed to considering the nuclear option for Iran. “The internal debate on this has hardened in recent weeks,” the adviser said. “And, if senior Pentagon officers express their opposition to the use of offensive nuclear weapons, then it will never happen.”

The adviser added, however, that the idea of using tactical nuclear weapons in such situations has gained support from the Defense Science Board, an advisory panel whose members are selected by Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. “They’re telling the Pentagon that we can build the B61 with more blast and less radiation,” he said.

The chairman of the Defense Science Board is William Schneider, Jr., an Under-Secretary of State in the Reagan Administration. In January, 2001, as President Bush prepared to take office, Schneider served on an ad-hoc panel on nuclear forces sponsored by the National Institute for Public Policy, a conservative think tank. The panel’s report recommended treating tactical nuclear weapons as an essential part of the U.S. arsenal and noted their suitability “for those occasions when the certain and prompt destruction of high priority targets is essential and beyond the promise of conventional weapons.” Several signers of the report are now prominent members of the Bush Administration, including Stephen Hadley, the national-security adviser; Stephen Cambone, the Under-Secretary of Defense for Intelligence; and Robert Joseph, the Under-Secretary of State for Arms Control and International Security.

The Pentagon adviser questioned the value of air strikes. “The Iranians have distributed their nuclear activity very well, and we have no clue where some of the key stuff is. It could even be out of the country,” he said. He warned, as did many others, that bombing Iran could provoke “a chain reaction” of attacks on American facilities and citizens throughout the world: “What will 1.2 billion Muslims think the day we attack Iran?”

With or without the nuclear option, the list of targets may inevitably expand. One recently retired high-level Bush Administration official, who is also an expert on war planning, told me that he would have vigorously argued against an air attack on Iran, because “Iran is a much tougher target” than Iraq. But, he added, “If you’re going to do any bombing to stop the nukes, you might as well improve your lie across the board. Maybe hit some training camps, and clear up a lot of other problems.”

The Pentagon adviser said that, in the event of an attack, the Air Force intended to strike many hundreds of targets in Iran but that “ninety-nine per cent of them have nothing to do with proliferation. There are people who believe it’s the way to operate”—that the Administration can achieve its policy goals in Iran with a bombing campaign, an idea that has been supported by neoconservatives.

If the order were to be given for an attack, the American combat troops now operating in Iran would be in position to mark the critical targets with laser beams, to insure bombing accuracy and to minimize civilian casualties. As of early winter, I was told by the government consultant with close ties to civilians in the Pentagon, the units were also working with minority groups in Iran, including the Azeris, in the north, the Baluchis, in the southeast, and the Kurds, in the northeast. The troops “are studying the terrain, and giving away walking-around money to ethnic tribes, and recruiting scouts from local tribes and shepherds,” the consultant said. One goal is to get “eyes on the ground”—quoting a line from “Othello,” he said, “Give me the ocular proof.” The broader aim, the consultant said, is to “encourage ethnic tensions” and undermine the regime.

The new mission for the combat troops is a product of Defense Secretary Rumsfeld’s long-standing interest in expanding the role of the military in covert operations, which was made official policy in the Pentagon’s Quadrennial Defense Review, published in February. Such activities, if conducted by C.I.A. operatives, would need a Presidential Finding and would have to be reported to key members of Congress.

“ ‘Force protection’ is the new buzzword,” the former senior intelligence official told me. He was referring to the Pentagon’s position that clandestine activities that can be broadly classified as preparing the battlefield or protecting troops are military, not intelligence, operations, and are therefore not subject to congressional oversight. “The guys in the Joint Chiefs of Staff say there are a lot of uncertainties in Iran,” he said. “We need to have more than what we had in Iraq. Now we have the green light to do everything we want.”

The President’s deep distrust of Ahmadinejad has strengthened his determination to confront Iran. This view has been reinforced by allegations that Ahmadinejad, who joined a special-forces brigade of the Revolutionary Guards in 1986, may have been involved in terrorist activities in the late eighties. (There are gaps in Ahmadinejad’s official biography in this period.) Ahmadinejad has reportedly been connected to Imad Mughniyeh, a terrorist who has been implicated in the deadly bombings of the U.S. Embassy and the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut, in 1983. Mughniyeh was then the security chief of Hezbollah; he remains on the F.B.I.’s list of most-wanted terrorists.

Robert Baer, who was a C.I.A. officer in the Middle East and elsewhere for two decades, told me that Ahmadinejad and his Revolutionary Guard colleagues in the Iranian government “are capable of making a bomb, hiding it, and launching it at Israel. They’re apocalyptic Shiites. If you’re sitting in Tel Aviv and you believe they’ve got nukes and missiles—you’ve got to take them out. These guys are nuts, and there’s no reason to back off.”

Under Ahmadinejad, the Revolutionary Guards have expanded their power base throughout the Iranian bureaucracy; by the end of January, they had replaced thousands of civil servants with their own members. One former senior United Nations official, who has extensive experience with Iran, depicted the turnover as “a white coup,” with ominous implications for the West. “Professionals in the Foreign Ministry are out; others are waiting to be kicked out,” he said. “We may be too late. These guys now believe that they are stronger than ever since the revolution.” He said that, particularly in consideration of China’s emergence as a superpower, Iran’s attitude was “To hell with the West. You can do as much as you like.”

Iran’s supreme religious leader, Ayatollah Khamenei, is considered by many experts to be in a stronger position than Ahmadinejad. “Ahmadinejad is not in control,” one European diplomat told me. “Power is diffuse in Iran. The Revolutionary Guards are among the key backers of the nuclear program, but, ultimately, I don’t think they are in charge of it. The Supreme Leader has the casting vote on the nuclear program, and the Guards will not take action without his approval.”

The Pentagon adviser on the war on terror said that “allowing Iran to have the bomb is not on the table. We cannot have nukes being sent downstream to a terror network. It’s just too dangerous.” He added, “The whole internal debate is on which way to go”—in terms of stopping the Iranian program. It is possible, the adviser said, that Iran will unilaterally renounce its nuclear plans—and forestall the American action. “God may smile on us, but I don’t think so. The bottom line is that Iran cannot become a nuclear-weapons state. The problem is that the Iranians realize that only by becoming a nuclear state can they defend themselves against the U.S. Something bad is going to happen.”

While almost no one disputes Iran’s nuclear ambitions, there is intense debate over how soon it could get the bomb, and what to do about that. Robert Gallucci, a former government expert on nonproliferation who is now the dean of the School of Foreign Service at Georgetown, told me, “Based on what I know, Iran could be eight to ten years away” from developing a deliverable nuclear weapon. Gallucci added, “If they had a covert nuclear program and we could prove it, and we could not stop it by negotiation, diplomacy, or the threat of sanctions, I’d be in favor of taking it out. But if you do it”—bomb Iran—“without being able to show there’s a secret program, you’re in trouble.”

Meir Dagan, the head of Mossad, Israel’s intelligence agency, told the Knesset last December that “Iran is one to two years away, at the latest, from having enriched uranium. From that point, the completion of their nuclear weapon is simply a technical matter.” In a conversation with me, a senior Israeli intelligence official talked about what he said was Iran’s duplicity: “There are two parallel nuclear programs” inside Iran—the program declared to the I.A.E.A. and a separate operation, run by the military and the Revolutionary Guards. Israeli officials have repeatedly made this argument, but Israel has not produced public evidence to support it. Richard Armitage, the Deputy Secretary of State in Bush’s first term, told me, “I think Iran has a secret nuclear-weapons program—I believe it, but I don’t know it.”

In recent months, the Pakistani government has given the U.S. new access to A. Q. Khan, the so-called father of the Pakistani atomic bomb. Khan, who is now living under house arrest in Islamabad, is accused of setting up a black market in nuclear materials; he made at least one clandestine visit to Tehran in the late nineteen-eighties. In the most recent interrogations, Khan has provided information on Iran’s weapons design and its time line for building a bomb. “The picture is of ‘unquestionable danger,’ ” the former senior intelligence official said. (The Pentagon adviser also confirmed that Khan has been “singing like a canary.”) The concern, the former senior official said, is that “Khan has credibility problems. He is suggestible, and he’s telling the neoconservatives what they want to hear”—or what might be useful to Pakistan’s President, Pervez Musharraf, who is under pressure to assist Washington in the war on terror.

“I think Khan’s leading us on,” the former intelligence official said. “I don’t know anybody who says, ‘Here’s the smoking gun.’ But lights are beginning to blink. He’s feeding us information on the time line, and targeting information is coming in from our own sources— sensors and the covert teams. The C.I.A., which was so burned by Iraqi W.M.D., is going to the Pentagon and the Vice-President’s office saying, ‘It’s all new stuff.’ People in the Administration are saying, ‘We’ve got enough.’ ”

The Administration’s case against Iran is compromised by its history of promoting false intelligence on Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction. In a recent essay on the Foreign Policy Web site, entitled “Fool Me Twice,” Joseph Cirincione, the director for nonproliferation at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, wrote, “The unfolding administration strategy appears to be an effort to repeat its successful campaign for the Iraq war.” He noted several parallels:

The vice president of the United States gives a major speech focused on the threat from an oil-rich nation in the Middle East. The U.S. Secretary of State tells Congress that the same nation is our most serious global challenge. The Secretary of Defense calls that nation the leading supporter of global terrorism.

Cirincione called some of the Administration’s claims about Iran “questionable” or lacking in evidence. When I spoke to him, he asked, “What do we know? What is the threat? The question is: How urgent is all this?” The answer, he said, “is in the intelligence community and the I.A.E.A.” (In August, the Washington Post reported that the most recent comprehensive National Intelligence Estimate predicted that Iran was a decade away from being a nuclear power.)

Last year, the Bush Administration briefed I.A.E.A. officials on what it said was new and alarming information about Iran’s weapons program which had been retrieved from an Iranian’s laptop. The new data included more than a thousand pages of technical drawings of weapons systems. The Washington Post reported that there were also designs for a small facility that could be used in the uranium-enrichment process. Leaks about the laptop became the focal point of stories in the Times and elsewhere. The stories were generally careful to note that the materials could have been fabricated, but also quoted senior American officials as saying that they appeared to be legitimate. The headline in the Times’ account read, “RELYING ON COMPUTER, U.S. SEEKS TO PROVE IRAN’S NUCLEAR AIMS.”

I was told in interviews with American and European intelligence officials, however, that the laptop was more suspect and less revelatory than it had been depicted. The Iranian who owned the laptop had initially been recruited by German and American intelligence operatives, working together. The Americans eventually lost interest in him. The Germans kept on, but the Iranian was seized by the Iranian counter-intelligence force. It is not known where he is today. Some family members managed to leave Iran with his laptop and handed it over at a U.S. embassy, apparently in Europe. It was a classic “walk-in.”

A European intelligence official said, “There was some hesitation on our side” about what the materials really proved, “and we are still not convinced.” The drawings were not meticulous, as newspaper accounts suggested, “but had the character of sketches,” the European official said. “It was not a slam-dunk smoking gun.”

The threat of American military action has created dismay at the headquarters of the I.A.E.A., in Vienna. The agency’s officials believe that Iran wants to be able to make a nuclear weapon, but “nobody has presented an inch of evidence of a parallel nuclear-weapons program in Iran,” the high-ranking diplomat told me. The I.A.E.A.’s best estimate is that the Iranians are five years away from building a nuclear bomb. “But, if the United States does anything militarily, they will make the development of a bomb a matter of Iranian national pride,” the diplomat said. “The whole issue is America’s risk assessment of Iran’s future intentions, and they don’t trust the regime. Iran is a menace to American policy.”

In Vienna, I was told of an exceedingly testy meeting earlier this year between Mohamed ElBaradei, the I.A.E.A.’s director-general, who won the Nobel Peace Prize last year, and Robert Joseph, the Under-Secretary of State for Arms Control. Joseph’s message was blunt, one diplomat recalled: “We cannot have a single centrifuge spinning in Iran. Iran is a direct threat to the national security of the United States and our allies, and we will not tolerate it. We want you to give us an understanding that you will not say anything publicly that will undermine us. ”

Joseph’s heavy-handedness was unnecessary, the diplomat said, since the I.A.E.A. already had been inclined to take a hard stand against Iran. “All of the inspectors are angry at being misled by the Iranians, and some think the Iranian leadership are nutcases—one hundred per cent totally certified nuts,” the diplomat said. He added that ElBaradei’s overriding concern is that the Iranian leaders “want confrontation, just like the neocons on the other side”—in Washington. “At the end of the day, it will work only if the United States agrees to talk to the Iranians.”

The central question—whether Iran will be able to proceed with its plans to enrich uranium—is now before the United Nations, with the Russians and the Chinese reluctant to impose sanctions on Tehran. A discouraged former I.A.E.A. official told me in late March that, at this point, “there’s nothing the Iranians could do that would result in a positive outcome. American diplomacy does not allow for it. Even if they announce a stoppage of enrichment, nobody will believe them. It’s a dead end.”

Another diplomat in Vienna asked me, “Why would the West take the risk of going to war against that kind of target without giving it to the I.A.E.A. to verify? We’re low-cost, and we can create a program that will force Iran to put its cards on the table.” A Western Ambassador in Vienna expressed similar distress at the White House’s dismissal of the I.A.E.A. He said, “If you don’t believe that the I.A.E.A. can establish an inspection system—if you don’t trust them—you can only bomb.”

There is little sympathy for the I.A.E.A. in the Bush Administration or among its European allies. “We’re quite frustrated with the director-general,” the European diplomat told me. “His basic approach has been to describe this as a dispute between two sides with equal weight. It’s not. We’re the good guys! ElBaradei has been pushing the idea of letting Iran have a small nuclear-enrichment program, which is ludicrous. It’s not his job to push ideas that pose a serious proliferation risk.”

The Europeans are rattled, however, by their growing perception that President Bush and Vice-President Dick Cheney believe a bombing campaign will be needed, and that their real goal is regime change. “Everyone is on the same page about the Iranian bomb, but the United States wants regime change,” a European diplomatic adviser told me. He added, “The Europeans have a role to play as long as they don’t have to choose between going along with the Russians and the Chinese or going along with Washington on something they don’t want. Their policy is to keep the Americans engaged in something the Europeans can live with. It may be untenable.”

“The Brits think this is a very bad idea,” Flynt Leverett, a former National Security Council staff member who is now a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution’s Saban Center, told me, “but they’re really worried we’re going to do it.” The European diplomatic adviser acknowledged that the British Foreign Office was aware of war planning in Washington but that, “short of a smoking gun, it’s going to be very difficult to line up the Europeans on Iran.” He said that the British “are jumpy about the Americans going full bore on the Iranians, with no compromise.”

The European diplomat said that he was skeptical that Iran, given its record, had admitted to everything it was doing, but “to the best of our knowledge the Iranian capability is not at the point where they could successfully run centrifuges” to enrich uranium in quantity. One reason for pursuing diplomacy was, he said, Iran’s essential pragmatism. “The regime acts in its best interests,” he said. Iran’s leaders “take a hard-line approach on the nuclear issue and they want to call the American bluff,” believing that “the tougher they are the more likely the West will fold.” But, he said, “From what we’ve seen with Iran, they will appear superconfident until the moment they back off.”

The diplomat went on, “You never reward bad behavior, and this is not the time to offer concessions. We need to find ways to impose sufficient costs to bring the regime to its senses. It’s going to be a close call, but I think if there is unity in opposition and the price imposed”—in sanctions—“is sufficient, they may back down. It’s too early to give up on the U.N. route.” He added, “If the diplomatic process doesn’t work, there is no military ‘solution.’ There may be a military option, but the impact could be catastrophic.”

Tony Blair, the British Prime Minister, was George Bush’s most dependable ally in the year leading up to the 2003 invasion of Iraq. But he and his party have been racked by a series of financial scandals, and his popularity is at a low point. Jack Straw, the Foreign Secretary, said last year that military action against Iran was “inconceivable.” Blair has been more circumspect, saying publicly that one should never take options off the table.

Other European officials expressed similar skepticism about the value of an American bombing campaign. “The Iranian economy is in bad shape, and Ahmadinejad is in bad shape politically,” the European intelligence official told me. “He will benefit politically from American bombing. You can do it, but the results will be worse.” An American attack, he said, would alienate ordinary Iranians, including those who might be sympathetic to the U.S. “Iran is no longer living in the Stone Age, and the young people there have access to U.S. movies and books, and they love it,” he said. “If there was a charm offensive with Iran, the mullahs would be in trouble in the long run.”

Another European official told me that he was aware that many in Washington wanted action. “It’s always the same guys,” he said, with a resigned shrug. “There is a belief that diplomacy is doomed to fail. The timetable is short.”

A key ally with an important voice in the debate is Israel, whose leadership has warned for years that it viewed any attempt by Iran to begin enriching uranium as a point of no return. I was told by several officials that the White House’s interest in preventing an Israeli attack on a Muslim country, which would provoke a backlash across the region, was a factor in its decision to begin the current operational planning. In a speech in Cleveland on March 20th, President Bush depicted Ahmadinejad’s hostility toward Israel as a “serious threat. It’s a threat to world peace.” He added, “I made it clear, I’ll make it clear again, that we will use military might to protect our ally Israel.”

Any American bombing attack, Richard Armitage told me, would have to consider the following questions: “What will happen in the other Islamic countries? What ability does Iran have to reach us and touch us globally—that is, terrorism? Will Syria and Lebanon up the pressure on Israel? What does the attack do to our already diminished international standing? And what does this mean for Russia, China, and the U.N. Security Council?”

Iran, which now produces nearly four million barrels of oil a day, would not have to cut off production to disrupt the world’s oil markets. It could blockade or mine the Strait of Hormuz, the thirty-four-mile-wide passage through which Middle Eastern oil reaches the Indian Ocean. Nonetheless, the recently retired defense official dismissed the strategic consequences of such actions. He told me that the U.S. Navy could keep shipping open by conducting salvage missions and putting mine- sweepers to work. “It’s impossible to block passage,” he said. The government consultant with ties to the Pentagon also said he believed that the oil problem could be managed, pointing out that the U.S. has enough in its strategic reserves to keep America running for sixty days. However, those in the oil business I spoke to were less optimistic; one industry expert estimated that the price per barrel would immediately spike, to anywhere from ninety to a hundred dollars per barrel, and could go higher, depending on the duration and scope of the conflict.

Michel Samaha, a veteran Lebanese Christian politician and former cabinet minister in Beirut, told me that the Iranian retaliation might be focussed on exposed oil and gas fields in Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, and the United Arab Emirates. “They would be at risk,” he said, “and this could begin the real jihad of Iran versus the West. You will have a messy world.”

Iran could also initiate a wave of terror attacks in Iraq and elsewhere, with the help of Hezbollah. On April 2nd, the Washington Post reported that the planning to counter such attacks “is consuming a lot of time” at U.S. intelligence agencies. “The best terror network in the world has remained neutral in the terror war for the past several years,” the Pentagon adviser on the war on terror said of Hezbollah. “This will mobilize them and put us up against the group that drove Israel out of southern Lebanon. If we move against Iran, Hezbollah will not sit on the sidelines. Unless the Israelis take them out, they will mobilize against us.” (When I asked the government consultant about that possibility, he said that, if Hezbollah fired rockets into northern Israel, “Israel and the new Lebanese government will finish them off.”)

The adviser went on, “If we go, the southern half of Iraq will light up like a candle.” The American, British, and other coalition forces in Iraq would be at greater risk of attack from Iranian troops or from Shiite militias operating on instructions from Iran. (Iran, which is predominantly Shiite, has close ties to the leading Shiite parties in Iraq.) A retired four-star general told me that, despite the eight thousand British troops in the region, “the Iranians could take Basra with ten mullahs and one sound truck.”

“If you attack,” the high-ranking diplomat told me in Vienna, “Ahmadinejad will be the new Saddam Hussein of the Arab world, but with more credibility and more power. You must bite the bullet and sit down with the Iranians.”

The diplomat went on, “There are people in Washington who would be unhappy if we found a solution. They are still banking on isolation and regime change. This is wishful thinking.” He added, “The window of opportunity is now.”
tjenz
Lets say Iran gets the bomb. Let's say they do the worst and use it (themselves or through some other group like AlQuida) against the U.S. or our allies?
What then happens to Iran?
My guess is we unleash our missles and explode dozens of nukes across Iran. They must know that and I'm sure they don't want that.
The M.A.D. theory of the the Cold War era will still keep everyone in check.
Alky 2009
QUOTE(The Priest @ Apr 11 2006, 09:38 AM) [snapback]61926[/snapback]

Lets say Iran gets the bomb. Let's say they do the worst and use it (themselves or through some other group like AlQuida) against the U.S. or our allies?
What then happens to Iran?
My guess is we unleash our missles and explode dozens of nukes across Iran. They must know that and I'm sure they don't want that.
The M.A.D. theory of the the Cold War era will still keep everyone in check.


I honestly don't think the old Cold War thinking applies anymore, especially to some of these countries where they'd probably consider it an "honor" to be destroyed by the enemy that is the U.S. as some sort of sacrifice for the "greater good". Politics is scary enough. Throw in religion and the old rules fly right out the window.
nic
who are the offical allies of the united states in this war on terror nowadays?
crease
QUOTE(The Priest @ Apr 11 2006, 09:38 AM) [snapback]61926[/snapback]

Lets say Iran gets the bomb. Let's say they do the worst and use it (themselves or through some other group like AlQuida) against the U.S. or our allies?
What then happens to Iran?
My guess is we unleash our missles and explode dozens of nukes across Iran. They must know that and I'm sure they don't want that.
The M.A.D. theory of the the Cold War era will still keep everyone in check.

You're assuming that every agent of destruction is rational. The article quotes several intelligence analysts/defense officials as believing that the current ruling party of Iran is crazy. Further, there's also the threat of Iran handing off a nuke to a Hezbollah, Queda, or other terrorist organization. You can't just willy nilly nuke every potential safe harbor for terrorists (Iran, Syria, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Malay'all send the thinga, etc.). They know this and it only further emboldens them to seek a device. Which is why, I suppose, that the administration would consider the threat as grave as they apparently do.
biggie mcsmalls
Israel and the UK? Who else?
crease
QUOTE(Biggie McSmalls @ Apr 11 2006, 09:49 AM) [snapback]61940[/snapback]

Israel and the UK? Who else?

It's not that simple. It depends on how you define 'war on terror'. For instance, I would guess that while most Middle Eastern autocrats (Mubarak, Hussein, etc.) support the effort to root out and eliminate militant Islamists (who, after all, pose a threat to the traditional ruling order in the Mideast), they've been loudly opposed to the Iraqi invasion/occupation.

That being said, Poland.
tjenz
QUOTE(crease @ Apr 11 2006, 09:48 AM) [snapback]61939[/snapback]

QUOTE(The Priest @ Apr 11 2006, 09:38 AM) [snapback]61926[/snapback]

Lets say Iran gets the bomb. Let's say they do the worst and use it (themselves or through some other group like AlQuida) against the U.S. or our allies?
What then happens to Iran?
My guess is we unleash our missles and explode dozens of nukes across Iran. They must know that and I'm sure they don't want that.
The M.A.D. theory of the the Cold War era will still keep everyone in check.

You're assuming that every agent of destruction is rational. The article quotes several intelligence analysts/defense officials as believing that the current ruling party of Iran is crazy. Further, there's also the threat of Iran handing off a nuke to a Hezbollah, Queda, or other terrorist organization. You can't just willy nilly nuke every potential safe harbor for terrorists (Iran, Syria, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Malay'all send the thinga, etc.). They know this and it only further emboldens them to seek a device. Which is why, I suppose, that the administration would consider the threat as grave as they apparently do.

That's what people in the DOD and CIA said about Nikita Khrushchev and a host of other Soviet leaders through the decades

I don't like any of the options we have with Iran, if diplomacy doesn't bring them around to agreeing with the rest of the world.
nic
QUOTE(Biggie McSmalls @ Apr 12 2006, 12:49 AM) [snapback]61940[/snapback]

Israel and the UK? Who else?


see. the government here in Australia is constantly talking about how tight we are with the US on this War on Terror farce. constantly reassuring everyone we are more safe from "terror" cos we went into iraq. but the whitehouse ain't gonna do shit, not that i care.
i'll die 1000 deaths if it means your Bush League is destroyed. i'm so sick of living in a lapdog nation.


Dag Nasty
QUOTE(nic @ Apr 11 2006, 09:47 AM) [snapback]61938[/snapback]

who are the offical allies of the united states in this war on terror nowadays?



IPB Image

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tjenz
QUOTE(nic @ Apr 11 2006, 09:58 AM) [snapback]61956[/snapback]


i'll die 1000 deaths if it means your Bush League is destroyed. i'm so sick of living in a lapdog nation.

I kind of like living in a nation that has other nations to be our lap dogs

Mitchell
QUOTE(Biggie McSmalls @ Apr 11 2006, 03:49 PM) [snapback]61940[/snapback]

Israel and the UK? Who else?


The 'coalition of the willing' in 2003 was named as (arab nations left of)

Afghanistan, Albania, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Colombia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, El Salvador, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Georgia, Hungary, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, the Netherlands, Nicaragua, the Philippines, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Spain, Turkey, United Kingdom and Uzbekistan.

Spain are out, Italy, well I don't know after last night, Afghanistan is one of several nations who don't really have an army that could fight without enormous US help. I'm not sure if the UK would be able to leap at the chance of going to war with Iraq still ticking over, If Blair tried to push anything through the House of Commons he'd pay with his job.

and Russia very much aren't the US's ally on bombing Arab countries.
held
The author of the above mentioned article was on CBC radio yesterday and it went like this:

interview ends-

host: "It was a pleasure to speak to you."

author: "What was pleasureable about it? We're talking about the potential global devastation."

host: "oh, right."

author: "bye."


Not that the CBC isn't anything more than an amateur hour sometimes but Seymour comes off as a little too serious for his own good. Not that any of this isn't true but I sure hope we're not gonna go sweeping into Iran. That's surely what would bring on a strike of some kind. There's just no reason for it. Despite how much of a nutbag their current president is.
undo
I feel a little sick after reading that.
QUOTE(nic @ Apr 11 2006, 09:58 AM) [snapback]61956[/snapback]

i'll die 1000 deaths if it means your Bush League is destroyed. i'm so sick of living in a lapdog nation.

Hey, only 50.7% of us wanted him back in office in the first place (34% still approve of him, according to the latest polls) so cheer up.

Stick with us (Americans, not the administration) and have faith that we'll eventually straighten things out here.
Uncle Remus
Oh yeah. We're gonna be fucked in our lifetime.
Howard Rock
Don't worry, if there's hell below, we're all gonna go.
MCF
China and Russia don't want the USA to bomb Iran. Proliferation is happening.

Frankenstein has emerged and his names are Korea and Iran.

There is nothing we can do about it.

QUOTE(Ballbag Hitter @ Apr 11 2006, 10:48 AM) [snapback]62036[/snapback]

Oh yeah. We're gonna be fucked in our lifetime.


People have been saying that for 2000+ years.

Truth is: America is full of a bunch of real fear-loving pussies. Whether it's nukes, a mini ice-age, global warming, whatever. America stands today to be in the best position on the globe for survival. We have a way lower probability than the EU for getting hit by terror.

Americans live in fear and it makes no sense to me.

QUOTE(Howard Rock @ Apr 11 2006, 11:45 AM) [snapback]62107[/snapback]

Don't worry, if there's hell below, we're all gonna go.


Not true. This conceptually makes no sense if you believe hell and heaven exist.
Howard Rock
QUOTE(MCF @ Apr 11 2006, 01:11 PM) [snapback]62131[/snapback]


QUOTE(Howard Rock @ Apr 11 2006, 11:45 AM) [snapback]62107[/snapback]

Don't worry, if there's hell below, we're all gonna go.


Not true. This conceptually makes no sense if you believe hell and heaven exist.


Goddamn, will you shut up? It's a freaking line from a Curtis Mayfield song for christsakes.
crease
QUOTE(ap emerger @ Apr 11 2006, 11:55 AM) [snapback]62117[/snapback]

QUOTE(Biggie McSmalls @ Apr 11 2006, 09:49 AM) [snapback]61940[/snapback]

Israel and the UK? Who else?


It's not that simple Biggie...We actually communicate with virtually every country we trade commerce with. Yes, even the Russians. Although, now we know that they were feeding Saddam military information regarding our 2003 invasion. mad.gif

Also, Crease...This is a very serious situation. I don't think that the story you re-posted is done with an objective, non-biased view. I mean really, that story had a lot of this type of stuff...
"“This is much more than a nuclear issue,” one high-ranking diplomat told me in Vienna. “That’s just a rallying point, and there is still time to fix it. But the Administration believes it cannot be fixed unless they control the hearts and minds of Iran. The real issue is who is going to control the Middle East and its oil in the next ten years.”
C'mon...who is this "High Ranking Diplomat in Vienna?

If you don't like the Bush Administration, great. Who cares. But, to let your own personal opinions distort the story is poor journalism.

Lastly, I'm certain that you remember the Israeli's attacking, bombing & destroying Saddam Husseins Nuclear reactor in Iraq back in the 1980's? Does anyone remember that?
People knew that Saddam was building nuclear weapon's to use against Israel. So, Israel took them out before hand. Problem solved. Now, the same thing is happening in Iraq, and all the freakin' liberals are saying "OMG! IT'S CRAZY BUSH OUT TO GET OIL!"

I say, check your history. Our problems began in the middle east 60 years ago with short sighted, double speak from both Democrats and Republicans, the French (morocco, algiers), The British, The Spanish, The Saudi's, Jordan, PLO, PLA, the creation of Israel, Nazi Germany and many many many others.
If you think is a recent problem created by George Bush, go home. Check your history. Turn off your Air-America & actually research. This is a very serious problem.



AP

ok, let me just reach the dial and...there!...I turned off Air America. Yaaaaay, my mind is now free!

As for the rest of your post, does the attention that Hersh pays to the (supposed) inevitability of Iraq getting a nuke and the serious consequences it could have on the region/world (concerns which would serve as the predicate of a pre-emptive military strike)...make him an arch-conservative as well? I mean, there are plenty of quotes a la 'these guys are batshit crazy and we need to get them before they get us' in the piece, no? So, isolating a single quote from a single source among the many in the story...who seem to span a number of ideologies (political and otherwise)...and using it to paint the author as some bleeding heart liberal blowhard...I'm not buying it.

Also, it seems more than a little naive on your part to think that it's irresponsible for Hersh to present the military planning as something OTHER than purely a strike against Iran's nuclear capabilities. Last I checked, there were about a million premises presented for the Iraq war (ranging from 'they tried to kill my dad' to human rights abuses to WMD to creating a beacon for democracy in the mideast...and so forth). The shifting rationale for the Iraq war reflects a more-basic truth--that neoconservative thought/philosophy played a large role in going to war there. Whether it was to assert our national hegemony in the world, hit them before they hit us (thereby expressing our power in a more resonant way), or whathaveyou, who knows. But the point--which Hersh wisely doesn't ignore--is that regime change in the mideast has been part of this administration's repertoire. As such, Hersh covers it (not to mention the other, oftentimes disparate views of others within and outside the administration).

But I've gotta run. You know...time to check my history, bro! (The irony of your post is that in sharing the article, I didn't make any judgment on the wisdom of taking military action. That is, part of what makes the situation scary..or in your estimable words 'a very serious problem' (thx!)...is the seeming intractability of the threat, which might make military action a necessity. I hope it doesn't come to that. But the situation should frighten liberals and conservatives alike.)
MCF
QUOTE(Howard Rock @ Apr 11 2006, 12:20 PM) [snapback]62144[/snapback]

QUOTE(MCF @ Apr 11 2006, 01:11 PM) [snapback]62131[/snapback]


QUOTE(Howard Rock @ Apr 11 2006, 11:45 AM) [snapback]62107[/snapback]

Don't worry, if there's hell below, we're all gonna go.


Not true. This conceptually makes no sense if you believe hell and heaven exist.


Goddamn, will you shut up? It's a freaking line from a Curtis Mayfield song for christsakes.


Oh. My bad.
without_opinion
QUOTE(MCF @ Apr 11 2006, 12:48 PM) [snapback]62178[/snapback]

QUOTE(Howard Rock @ Apr 11 2006, 12:20 PM) [snapback]62144[/snapback]

QUOTE(MCF @ Apr 11 2006, 01:11 PM) [snapback]62131[/snapback]


QUOTE(Howard Rock @ Apr 11 2006, 11:45 AM) [snapback]62107[/snapback]

Don't worry, if there's hell below, we're all gonna go.


Not true. This conceptually makes no sense if you believe hell and heaven exist.


Goddamn, will you shut up? It's a freaking line from a Curtis Mayfield song for christsakes.


Oh. My bad.


but hey, if we go to hell, we're gonna have a damn fine party down there, and the heavenites are gonna be jealous.
MCF
QUOTE(crease @ Apr 11 2006, 12:21 PM) [snapback]62146[/snapback]

QUOTE(ap emerger @ Apr 11 2006, 11:55 AM) [snapback]62117[/snapback]

QUOTE(Biggie McSmalls @ Apr 11 2006, 09:49 AM) [snapback]61940[/snapback]

Israel and the UK? Who else?


It's not that simple Biggie...We actually communicate with virtually every country we trade commerce with. Yes, even the Russians. Although, now we know that they were feeding Saddam military information regarding our 2003 invasion. mad.gif

Also, Crease...This is a very serious situation. I don't think that the story you re-posted is done with an objective, non-biased view. I mean really, that story had a lot of this type of stuff...
"“This is much more than a nuclear issue,” one high-ranking diplomat told me in Vienna. “That’s just a rallying point, and there is still time to fix it. But the Administration believes it cannot be fixed unless they control the hearts and minds of Iran. The real issue is who is going to control the Middle East and its oil in the next ten years.”
C'mon...who is this "High Ranking Diplomat in Vienna?

If you don't like the Bush Administration, great. Who cares. But, to let your own personal opinions distort the story is poor journalism.

Lastly, I'm certain that you remember the Israeli's attacking, bombing & destroying Saddam Husseins Nuclear reactor in Iraq back in the 1980's? Does anyone remember that?
People knew that Saddam was building nuclear weapon's to use against Israel. So, Israel took them out before hand. Problem solved. Now, the same thing is happening in Iraq, and all the freakin' liberals are saying "OMG! IT'S CRAZY BUSH OUT TO GET OIL!"

I say, check your history. Our problems began in the middle east 60 years ago with short sighted, double speak from both Democrats and Republicans, the French (morocco, algiers), The British, The Spanish, The Saudi's, Jordan, PLO, PLA, the creation of Israel, Nazi Germany and many many many others.
If you think is a recent problem created by George Bush, go home. Check your history. Turn off your Air-America & actually research. This is a very serious problem.



AP

ok, let me just reach the dial and...there!...I turned off Air America. Yaaaaay, my mind is now free!

As for the rest of your post, does the attention that Hersh pays to the (supposed) inevitability of Iraq getting a nuke and the serious consequences it could have on the region/world (concerns which would serve as the predicate of a pre-emptive military strike)...make him an arch-conservative as well? I mean, there are plenty of quotes a la 'these guys are batshit crazy and we need to get them before they get us' in the piece, no? So, isolating a single quote from a single source among the many in the story...who seem to span a number of ideologies (political and otherwise)...and using it to paint the author as some bleeding heart liberal blowhard...I'm not buying it.

Also, it seems more than a little naive on your part to think that it's irresponsible for Hersh to present the military planning as something OTHER than purely a strike against Iran's nuclear capabilities. Last I checked, there were about a million premises presented for the Iraq war (ranging from 'they tried to kill my dad' to human rights abuses to WMD to creating a beacon for democracy in the mideast...and so forth). The shifting rationale for the Iraq war reflects a more-basic truth--that neoconservative thought/philosophy played a large role in going to war there. Whether it was to assert our national hegemony in the world, hit them before they hit us (thereby expressing our power in a more resonant way), or whathaveyou, who knows. But the point--which Hersh wisely doesn't ignore--is that regime change in the mideast has been part of this administration's repertoire. As such, Hersh covers it (not to mention the other, oftentimes disparate views of others within and outside the administration).

But I've gotta run. You know...time to check my history, bro! (The irony of your post is that in sharing the article, I didn't make any judgment on the wisdom of taking military action. That is, part of what makes the situation scary..or in your estimable words 'a very serious problem' (thx!)...is the seeming intractability of the threat, which might make military action a necessity. I hope it doesn't come to that. But the situation should frighten liberals and conservatives alike.)


Nobody should be frightened by this. Proliferation is an inevitability. On a fear scale, if nukes scare you, you should be a lot more frightened by India/Pakistan.

What are you afraid of? The Iranians nuking Israel? What exactly frightens you? Are you afraid Iran is going to invade Iraq?
MCF
[quote name='ap emerger' date='Apr 11 2006, 12:59 PM' post='62203']
[quote name='crease' date='Apr 11 2006, 12:21 PM' post='62146']
[quote name='ap emerger' post='62117' date='Apr 11 2006, 11:55 AM']
Also, Crease...This is a very serious situation. I don't think that the story you re-posted is done with an objective, non-biased view. I mean really, that story had a lot of this type of stuff...
"“This is much more than a nuclear issue,” one high-ranking diplomat told me in Vienna. “That’s just a rallying point, and there is still time to fix it. But the Administration believes it cannot be fixed unless they control the hearts and minds of Iran. The real issue is who is going to control the Middle East and its oil in the next ten years.”
C'mon...who is this "High Ranking Diplomat in Vienna? But the situation should frighten liberals and conservatives alike.)
[/quote]

True, please note that my criticism was /should've been directed towards the writer of the piece. Not you presonally. If it came off that way, I apologize.

That story did have a lot of "a certain person said" and seemingly skewed anecdotal proof. Which should've been my main point.
It seems to me that Americans have a huge problem with our memory. Out of sight, out of mind.
I have spent a lot of time in the Middle East. I find the deepening polarization of Left vs Right very disturbing. I am a relatively well educated Libertarian who has followed Middle East affairs with great interest, long before 9-11 ever happened.

Iran can/will be a very big problem. Not only for us in this country but for all of our allies (ie. people we trade with, tourism, commerce). I have no problems with the administration calling Ahmadinejad "Hitler." All a person has to do is read many of the scary things he is wanting to do.
Israel did this in 1980's. No one balked & felt the world was a safer place. We should be actively researching if such a plan can be done as well to save our own bacon too. Does that make me a crazy right winger or "war-Monger"? I'll let you decide that. Thanks for bothering to read my post. I appreciate it. Have a good day.

AP cool.gif
[/quote]

Iran won't be the last country to obtain nuclear weaponry. The UN is a joke. It's a tool that is used to buy time, and little more at this point. It seems to me anyway.
Mitchell
The multi-quotes have been turned on, use them.
NumberTenOx
Afraid? Oh no. I'm waiting for the Three Stooges star in "Armageddon Outta Here!. We won't attack Iran (the big ugly crooked cop) unless provoked. So we'll smack Syria in the puss, ala Moe. Syria will wobble around and say, "Woo-woo-woo!" in Curly fashion, and throw a cream pie in the shape of money and men at the northern border of Iraq. The Iraqis (Larry), will say "AHHHH!" and be shown on the six o'clock news. Suddenly, a stray stream of seltzer that looks remarkably like a misslie will fly out of the fight, flying at Iranian nuclear installation. The missle will be off course, hit a village, and kill several children.

Hilarity ensues. Don't you see?
crease
[/quote]

Nobody should be frightened by this. Proliferation is an inevitability. On a fear scale, if nukes scare you, you should be a lot more frightened by India/Pakistan.

What are you afraid of? The Iranians nuking Israel? What exactly frightens you? Are you afraid Iran is going to invade Iraq?
[/quote]
Phew, I feel sooo much better now. dry.gif

Proliferation might be an inevitability. But proliferation by countries led by a militantly anti-West/anti-semite theocracy are a teenytiny bit different than isolated dictators in Pyongyang, no? Also, Pakistan and India don't have nearly the bargaining chip--natural resources (i.e., oil reserves) that Iran enjoys. It makes the situations fundamentally different.

What scares me? Iran lobbing a nuke at Israel. Or Israel preemptively taking action, causing a widescale escalation of conflict in the Middle East. Us going in and preemptively taking action, throwing the mideast into upheaval. Iran selling a weapon to a terrorist organization. Shall I continue?
sin city
QUOTE(crease @ Apr 11 2006, 01:20 PM) [snapback]62235[/snapback]


What scares me? Iran lobbing a nuke at Israel. Or Israel preemptively taking action, causing a widescale escalation of conflict in the Middle East. Us going in and preemptively taking action, throwing the mideast into upheaval. Iran selling a weapon to a terrorist organization. Shall I continue?


spiders?
Mitchell
QUOTE(ap emerger @ Apr 11 2006, 07:08 PM) [snapback]62219[/snapback]

QUOTE(Gareth Keenan Invetigates @ Apr 11 2006, 01:05 PM) [snapback]62213[/snapback]

The multi-quotes have been turned on, use them.


Thanks Gareth..Note my above post. I have been cleansed of multiple Quotitis. smile.gif


AP cool.gif


Threads like these were always a pain when people had to bold what they said and then reply to replies.
MCF
[quote name='crease' date='Apr 11 2006, 01:20 PM' post='62235']
[/quote]

Nobody should be frightened by this. Proliferation is an inevitability. On a fear scale, if nukes scare you, you should be a lot more frightened by India/Pakistan.

What are you afraid of? The Iranians nuking Israel? What exactly frightens you? Are you afraid Iran is going to invade Iraq?
[/quote]
Phew, I feel sooo much better now. dry.gif

Proliferation might be an inevitability. But proliferation by countries led by a militantly anti-West/anti-semite theocracy are a teenytiny bit different than isolated dictators in Pyongyang, no? Also, Pakistan and India don't have nearly the bargaining chip--natural resources (i.e., oil reserves) that Iran enjoys. It makes the situations fundamentally different.

What scares me? Iran lobbing a nuke at Israel. Or Israel preemptively taking action, causing a widescale escalation of conflict in the Middle East. Us going in and preemptively taking action, throwing the mideast into upheaval. Iran selling a weapon to a terrorist organization. Shall I continue?
[/quote]

Profileration is no longer an inevitability. It's here: 100%. Korea is now passing it to Iran. If you are afraid of the implications: I'd suggest purchasing plans for your bunker as soon as possible. This is absolutely no different than dictator's in Pyongyang. N. Korea has openly stated that they proliferated for the purpose of shooting missiles at the United States. In reality: there is way more to fear form N. Korea than Iran, if you think about it. I'll give you that about Pakistan/India. It's all about the same. The word on the street is: countries nuking each other is bad: we agree there.

I am not scared of them lobbing a nuke at Israel anymore than I am scared of Moscow lobbing one at Chicago, where I live. A widescale escalation of conflict in the ME should be the title of a new book describing the ME for the last 100 years. I think you are really missing something: the ME is in upheaval my friend. Iran having a nuke may make it slightly worse, but actually they say the Saudis are now on the bandwagon: you get my point? As far as selling a nuke to a terrorist group? That is something I agree should be a major concern for everybody.


[quote name='MCF' date='Apr 11 2006, 01:30 PM' post='62247']
[quote name='crease' date='Apr 11 2006, 01:20 PM' post='62235']
[/quote]

Nobody should be frightened by this. Proliferation is an inevitability. On a fear scale, if nukes scare you, you should be a lot more frightened by India/Pakistan.

What are you afraid of? The Iranians nuking Israel? What exactly frightens you? Are you afraid Iran is going to invade Iraq?
[/quote]
Phew, I feel sooo much better now. dry.gif

Proliferation might be an inevitability. But proliferation by countries led by a militantly anti-West/anti-semite theocracy are a teenytiny bit different than isolated dictators in Pyongyang, no? Also, Pakistan and India don't have nearly the bargaining chip--natural resources (i.e., oil reserves) that Iran enjoys. It makes the situations fundamentally different.

What scares me? Iran lobbing a nuke at Israel. Or Israel preemptively taking action, causing a widescale escalation of conflict in the Middle East. Us going in and preemptively taking action, throwing the mideast into upheaval. Iran selling a weapon to a terrorist organization. Shall I continue?
[/quote]

Profileration is no longer an inevitability. It's here: 100%. Korea is now passing it to Iran. If you are afraid of the implications: I'd suggest purchasing plans for your bunker as soon as possible. This is absolutely no different than dictator's in Pyongyang. N. Korea has openly stated that they proliferated for the purpose of shooting missiles at the United States. In reality: there is way more to fear form N. Korea than Iran, if you think about it. I'll give you that about Pakistan/India. It's all about the same. The word on the street is: countries nuking each other is bad: we agree there.

I am not scared of them lobbing a nuke at Israel anymore than I am scared of Moscow lobbing one at Chicago, where I live. A widescale escalation of conflict in the ME should be the title of a new book describing the ME for the last 100 years. I think you are really missing something: the ME is in upheaval my friend. Iran having a nuke may make it slightly worse, but actually they say the Saudis are now on the bandwagon: you get my point? As far as selling a nuke to a terrorist group? That is something I agree should be a major concern for everybody.
[/quote]

And I have to add here: How do you think Arab countries feel? A country the size of Israel has been loaded with nukes, sits in their midst, occasionally using it's fully loaded air force to bunker bomb anything they do that the West deams inappropriate. I am no lover of Arab countries, but the world just doesn't work like that. They will proliferate. Period.
Josh Acid
Has anybody read this?

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's letter to President George W. Bush

held
QUOTE(Sid Hartha. @ May 10 2006, 10:46 AM) [snapback]85403[/snapback]


It's like an 8-page questionaire that can be summarized from one line:

"Mr President, it is not my intention to distress anyone."

..too late Mahmood
beansimpson
Can we get those Nike silos back up and operational by the lake?
Mr. Sinistro
QUOTE(sin city @ Apr 11 2006, 01:26 PM) [snapback]62241[/snapback]

QUOTE(crease @ Apr 11 2006, 01:20 PM) [snapback]62235[/snapback]


What scares me? Iran lobbing a nuke at Israel. Or Israel preemptively taking action, causing a widescale escalation of conflict in the Middle East. Us going in and preemptively taking action, throwing the mideast into upheaval. Iran selling a weapon to a terrorist organization. Shall I continue?


spiders?


LMAO @ spiders.

It's really a fascinating and frightening article. Not sure why I didn't read it before.
undo


Review
New York Times best-selling author Evans calls on a slumbering church to stand against evil in The Final Move Beyond Iraq, the latest of his works about the volatile Middle East. Evans also challenges America to act decisively in 2007 because, he believes, Iran will soon reach the point of no return in its nuclear program. A political conservative who has served as personal confidant to many of Israel's top leaders, Evans declares that President George W. Bush was right to invade Iraq and that having a base for democracy in the region is essential. However, the author is more worried about Iran, which he sees as the current financier and exporter of Islamofascism, a form of radical Islam that seeks global domination. Rather than simply getting Iraq to police itself, Evans believes, the priority of the war should be on defeating Iran's nuclear plans. Evans urges the church to wake up and pray like the prophet Daniel did in the 21 days that brought deliverance to his people. Political conservatives will find Evans to be an ally and staunch advocate of the war on terror. Christine D. Johnson --Christian Retailing: May 7, 2007

Product Description
The Final Move Beyond Iraq
By Mike Evans

In The Final Move Beyond Iraq, Mike Evans addresses the greatest threat America has faced since the Civil War: the Islamic revolution, or Islamofascism. While the United States debates the best way to solve the situation in Iraq, the terrorists are claiming victory and planning to take their show to American soil once again.

Drawing from extensive interviews with prime ministers, CIA directors, and other insiders, Evans looks at the history and ideology behind the Islamic revolution to explore its very real threat to U.S. interests why radical Islamic terrorists will only step back when they fear us, why victory in Iraq is important to U.S. security, why the United States and Israel cannot sit idly by and let Iran achieve its desire for nuclear weapons, and why stabilization in Iraq now would sound defeat rather than victory.

The Final Move Beyond Iraq is a wake-up call to mobilize millions to action. America is fighting for its life in the first war of the twenty-first century.

Mitchell
In full: David Miliband speech
Here is the full text of Foreign Secretary David Miliband's speech to the 2007 Labour Party conference:

QUOTE
I feel a profound sense of responsibility as we discuss foreign policy today. With the successes but also the scars of ten years in government, we have to learn the right lessons and address the new issues. Succeed and we'll move on with unity and confidence.

Just reflect on our world today.

Fewer countries at war than ever before.

More democracies than ever before.

More children surviving infancy, more girls and women getting education.

More trade, more travel, more connections between people.

Around the globe, aspiration unleashed.

And I don't know about you, but I think, from Tsunami Relief to the battle against climate change, that there is a stronger sense that we share this planet, and so need to do more for each other.

We all just listened to Ikhlas Mohammed. Let's give her a message back: we will not forget you and we will not let you down. The progress is inspiring. But the insecurities are real and potent.

Religious extremism with one brutal aim: to use murder to divide us. Global inequality symbolised by one shocking fact: in our rich world, richer than ever, 2.6 billion people, nearly half of the developing world's population, live on £1 a day.

And climate change sending one stark warning, every week and every year: the world, we, have got to stop living beyond our means.

New, global, complex, overlapping insecurities, compounded by international institutions defined for the power politics of the 1950s not the realities of our lives in the 21st century.

Ten years in government.

New challenges.

Time to learn the right lessons and move on.

For ten years we've been uncompromising in defence of our values, unapologetic that every citizen of every nation deserves the freedom and equal rights of a true democracy. I believe we were right to do so. But when I went to Pakistan, I met young, educated, articulate people in their 20s and 30s who told me millions of Muslims around the world think we're seeking not to empower them but to dominate them. So we have to stop and we have to think. The lesson is that it's not good enough to have good intentions. To assert shared values is not enough. We must embody them in shared institutions.

That's why Europe can't be a closed Christian club, why a lasting settlement for the people of Kosovo is a defining test for the whole of Europe, and why Turkey should become a full and equal member of the EU. We're right to be supporting the Government and people of Afghanistan in driving back terrorism. But we also need them to work with Pakistan to build strong, stable, democratic countries able to tackle terrorism on both sides of the border. And Al Qaeda are using the suffering of the Palestinians as an excuse for violence. We need to remove the excuse. We need urgent progress to address Israeli security and Palestinian rights through the only solution, a two state solution in the Middle East.

Ten years in government.

Time to learn the right lessons and move on to address the new issues. Four times we've sent young men and women to fight for our values. Rightly in my view. And we cannot forget their bravery and their sacrifice. But while we've won the wars it's been harder to win the peace. The lesson is that while there are military victories there never is a military "solution". There's only military action that creates the space for economic and political life. The war in Iraq was divisive in our party and in our country. It was a huge decision and the passion on all sides was sincere and understandable. But whatever the rights and wrongs, and there have been both, we've got to focus on the future. We need to continue to support the development of an effective Iraqi Security Force. We need to keep our promise to all Iraqis that they will have an economic stake in the future of their country.

And we need to work with all the neighbours of Iraq to reconcile Sunnis and Shias, to prevent that conflict first fragmenting the country and then spreading like a contagion across the Middle East.

Ten years in government.

We've talked about being a bridge between Europe and America. I've made that speech. I'll always defend our alliance with the US and our membership of the EU. For me, both are permanent commitments, beyond individual personalities, not tactical positions. But I have to acknowledge that both Europe and America are less popular now than ten years ago. It's not enough to talk about a bridge.
So what do we do? Some want distance from America. Others want distance from Europe. The Tories want divorce from both. But those are the wrong lessons. We share core values with America.It has more power for good than any nation in the world. And we must come together in a great project.

In the 1940s and 50s we built international institutions to promote peace for a divided globe. Today, we need institutions which re-define the global rules for our shared planet. From Burma to Zimbabwe we need to ensure all countries feel it's better to play by the rules rather than ignore them. And while I'm at it wasn't it brilliant to see Aung San Suu Kyi alive and well outside her house last week.I think it will be a hundred times better when she takes her rightful place as the elected leader of a free and democratic Burma.

And the EU, for all the attacks on it, is one international institution we need today. The European Arrest Warrant snared the 21st July bomber. European commitments are leading the fight against climate change. Europe needs to look out, not in, to the problems beyond its borders that define insecurity within our borders. It doesn't need institutional navel-gazing and that is why the Reform Treaty abandons fundamental constitutional reform and offers clear protections for national sovereignty. It should be studied and passed by Parliament. And to every Tory MP we should say: there are 8 members of your shadow cabinet who voted against a referendum on The Maastricht Treaty in 1992. Europe has divided them for 15 years and it's not going to divide us.

Ten years in government.

Now a new chapter. Yes the world can be a scary place. Yes it's tempting to lower our sights. But in progressive politics we must always be restless for change. And that means we have to be restless about the future, not the past.

Who says in ten years time, we will not have turned back the inexorable rise in global emissions? Who says in ten years time every child in the world won't be at school? Who says in ten years time, there can't be a democratic and respected Iran, cooperating with us and the international community against global terrorism? I'll tell you who. The same people who say my generation doesn't care about politics.
But my generation has seen the force of progress.

We heard the President of East Germany say the Berlin Wall would last 100 years. One month later, we watched young people, our age, in East Germany tear it down. We are the optimistic generation not because we are young but because of our experience.

So from the debates at the UN Security Council to the arguments on the doorstep let's move on with humility but also pride.

Progress is possible.

Britain has a vital role to play.

And the prize is immense.

Not the end of history but more people better educated, better fed, better off, better able to make their own history.

Better able to share, peacefully, this "crowded, dangerous, beautiful world".

And that, after all, is what our foreign policy, the second wave of New Labour foreign policy, is all about.
held
Is it just me or does anyone else thought that perhaps ever since W. called out 'the axis of evil' that it's been pretty clear that they've only been chatting it up together? I mean seperate from the distinctions of all the other stuff that we've gotten ourselves into with Iraq and all. It never fails to shock me how it is that the current administration never seems to be able to see the big picture.

Mitchell
So it looks like they don't have anything well

So Iran's not a nuclear threat any more? All the more reason for Bush to unleash Armageddon
Bush is so fact-phobic that he might as well declare a war on reality, in which anything palpably authentic is the enemy


Charlie Brooker
Monday December 10, 2007
The Guardian

So let's get this straight. A US intelligence report decides that Iran isn't as big a threat as once feared, and Bush decides this proves that, actually guys, I think you'll find it is. You've got to admire his steadfast refusal to acknowledge anything that doesn't complement his monochromatic world view. He's a true tunnel visionary. Awkward facts simply ricochet off him, like peashooter pellets bouncing harmlessly from an elephant's hide. He knows what he wants to believe, and he'll carry on believing it until it kills him.

Or us. Preferably us. He can always recant and say, "Oops, I was wrong" in his bunker. We'll be long gone by then, so what does he care?

Very little, in all probability. Bush is a bit like an unhinged iconoclast who has arbitrarily decided he doesn't believe in cows, and loudly and repeatedly denies their existence until you get so annoyed you drive him to a farm and show him a cow, and he shakes his head and continues to insist there's no such thing. At which point it moos indignantly, but he claims not to hear it, so in exasperation you drag him into the field and force him to touch the cow, and milk the cow, and ride around on the cow's back. And, finally, he dismounts and says, "That was fun'n'all, but dagnammit, I still don't believe in no cow." And then he shoots it in the head regardless, just to be on the safe side. Just so it isn't a threat.

Come to think of it, Bush is so vehemently fact-phobic, he might as well expand the war on terror into an outright war on reality, in which anything palpably authentic is the enemy. There'll be an "Axis of Real Stuff", encompassing everyone and everything from hairbands to dustmen, all of which Must Be Eliminated. "If it's provable, we can kill it." That's our new motto. God's on our side, because he can't be proved or disproved. He's one of our most valuable allies - the others being Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, ghosts, the bogeyman, and Bigfoot. Not to mention a vast fleet of UFOs, which the enemy won't have a chance of defeating because it never existed in the first place. Our armies won't be constrained by the laws of physics, and even if we lose, we'll simply say we won, even if we have to say it from an afterlife which doesn't exist either. That's the power of unwavering denial. It makes deities of us all.

Of course, by rejecting anything he doesn't want to hear, Bush is simply proving he's human. Humans hate the truth. Once someone's made up their mind, they rarely change it, no matter how much evidence to the contrary you show them. Changing your mind or admitting you were wrong is seen as weak, as though life itself were an almighty pub quiz where incorrect answers are penalised. The only option left is to interpret the facts in a new and interesting way that supports your overall position. This is what Bush has done. He says that since the report indicates that Iran halted its weapons programme in 2003, there's a clear possibility it could start it up again. The very fact that the Iranians don't have a nuclear bomb proves they might still develop one. Therefore, Iran is dangerous.

That's a clever thing to say, because a) the future is unknowable, so it's impossible to tell him he's wrong, and cool.gif the more he says it, the more likely it is to come true. Since Bush has shown that he'll view Iran as a nuclear threat regardless of whether it's got the bomb or not, the Iranians might as well build one. What have they got to lose?

Also, the report doesn't say whether the Iranians are developing a giant laser beam capable of sawing the sun in two, but that's no reason to assume they won't be starting work on it next week. Picture a world in which Ahmadinejad holds us to ransom by threatening to plunge one sawn-off half of the sun into the Atlantic, sending 900ft waves of boiling water rushing toward our shores. We can't let that happen. We've got to get in first: drive a space shuttle into the sun and blow the damn thing up before the enemy get their hands on it. It might solve global warming too. Let's hope the Pentagon is across this. Don't let us down, guys. Knock that baby out.

Another benefit of ignoring the report and piling in regardless is that at least this time round we'll know for sure that the invasion and subsequent war is based on a false premise in advance, which beats finding out later and feeling a bit disgusted with ourselves. Forewarned is forearmed. It's a narrative tweak which keeps things fresh and interesting. The TV series Columbo used a similar device: instead of being served a common-or- garden whodunnit, you'd see the murderer committing the crime at the start, so the fun came from watching his plan slowly unravel. There's no danger of that happening to Bush though, because he doesn't believe in plans either. So nothing unravels. It's a win-win situation. He should unleash the hounds tomorrow. Go ahead, George. We'll be fine, out here, outside the bunker. Don't you worry about us.

· This week Charlie watched what felt like the entire year's worth of television in preparation for his Screen Wipe review of 2007: "It was like being a crap Doctor Who: I didn't go back very far and I achieved nothing." Charlie felt sorry for the canoe couple: "The authorities should free them for Christmas on the grounds that they have entertained the whole nation.
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