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Ben
http://www.latimes.com/features/lifestyle/...-home-headlines

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QUOTE
'There is such a thing as a cute fat chick, and that’s me.'


Letting it all hang out
For many young women, one size fits all – no matter how that makes them look.
By Robin Abcarian, Times Staff Writer
July 4, 2006

THE Sausage Casing Girls are everywhere this summer, their muffin tops hanging over their hip-skimming jeans, clothes shrink-wrapped around fleshy bodies that look as if they've been stuffed — like forcemeat — into teensy tops and skintight pants.

Visit the local mall, any beach boardwalk or the sidewalk in front of your neighborhood high school and you will see why healthcare professionals are so alarmed about expanding waistlines. And while chunky teen boys and young men hide in cartoonishly large basketball jerseys over big T-shirts and elephant-legged shorts, girls generally do not. They may be getting bigger, but their clothes are getting smaller.

One is tempted to applaud the Sausage Casing Girls; after all, Southern California is an epicenter of body consciousness, and here they are thumbing their noses at the idea that they must be whippets or Lindsay Lohans to wear the current styles, which for the last several seasons have been exaggeratedly body-hugging and skin-revealing. Perhaps all that self-esteem building has finally paid off.

But this phenomenon does not appear entirely to be about self-acceptance and the conscious abandonment of repressive physical ideals. It is far more complicated than that. Yes, there are plenty of young women who can confidently say that they are happy with their less-than-svelte shapes — and that is to be applauded. But there are many others who in the rush to be fashionable are unable to admit that they are larger than they wish to be, or that their bodies just don't look good in the clothes they are choosing. Instead of reveling in their big, beautiful bodies, many girls instead are deep in denial, pouring themselves into clothes that are putting them in a python squeeze.

Luisana Sanchez, an athletic 19-year-old college student who lives in South Gate, likes to wear tight clothes. She would also like to drop a few pounds, but she insists on buying clothes that fit her. As a result, she has no fat rolls squeezing up into a muffin top above her belt. Her T-shirts do not climb, leaving a bare expanse of skin showing around her middle.

However, at Potrero's, her local 18-and-older nightclub, she said she can't believe the number of overweight women in teensy clothes, with everything hanging out. "Fat or skinny, it doesn't matter," she said. "The guys in there will look at you if you're wearing a little skirt and hoochie tank top."

After years of observing her peers, Sanchez has a theory about the Sausage Casing Girls: "Nowadays, you have kids eating so much junk food that they're overweight and they're trying to fit into junior sizes. They don't want to go to bigger sizes. But junior sizes are for, like, tall, thin girls. So you have girls wearing tight jeans and you see their love handles sticking out 'cause they want to fit into the tight pants that are in style."

Her theory is supported by those who study the psychology and self-images of girls and young women.

"Everyone wants to buy a small size, even if it looks terrible," said psychologist Nancy Etcoff, who directs the Program in Aesthetics and Well Being in the department of psychiatry at Massachusetts General Hospital. "There is shame in buying sizes that are above 8, which some think is already a big size."

Etcoff said that one of her patients, a 16-year-old girl, was traumatized in front of friends when one held up a pair of her size 7/8 jeans and said, "You wear these? I could get two of me in here."

"It would be great if they were wearing these clothes and had body pride," said Etcoff, author of "Survival of the Prettiest: The Science of Beauty," which argues that the appreciation of human beauty is innate and that attractiveness confers survival advantages. "For most girls, though, this is not the case."

Advice columnist Jessica Weiner, author of "A Very Hungry Girl," believes that girls are at the mercy of several forces: the oversexualization of teen girl clothing, peer pressure and relentless messages about self-esteem. Plus, said Weiner, the "image diet" they are on contributes to a distorted body image: They don't see anyone who looks like them on TV, in movies, in ads, or in fashion spreads. "It's like a cocktail for disaster," said Weiner, 32, who suffered from eating disorders in her teens.

Fifteen-year-old Nattalie Tehrani is a junior at South High School in Torrance who developed an eating disorder after gaining weight when she quit the swim team. "Fifty percent of the girls at my school wear low pants and short tops, and their stomachs are hanging out. It's unflattering and unattractive, but there is not one kid at my school who does not have a pair of Frankie B.'s or True Religion," she said, alluding to popular and pricey denim brands known for the lowest of low-rise waists. "Parents don't seem like they give their kids the truth anymore — they don't tell them that it's inappropriate to wear clothes like that."

Susan Bartell, a psychologist and the author of "Dr. Susan's Girls-Only Weight Loss Guide," said there are multiple reasons for this trend. Some girls just want to fit in and they end up in uncomfortably tight clothes because the culture demands it, some girls rationalize that they look good in the clothes because they aren't ready to confront the idea that they are overweight and some are honestly OK with how they look.

"And there is something to be said for feeling so comfortable with your own body," she emphasized. But, she added, a hallmark of teenage minds is egocentricity and the ability to rationalize away what they don't like about themselves. Some of these girls, she said, "don't want to admit that they need bigger clothes. The little skinny girls are still shopping in juniors, and the big girls don't want to admit that their bodies aren't little."

One weekday afternoon in front of the auditorium at Venice High School, 16-year-old Ivonne Lopez was hanging out with a couple of friends, waiting for her ride home. "The girls who wear tight clothing," she said, "well, it's kind of hard not to. This is because everywhere you look, this is the only type of clothing available…. The only clothes that are cute and pretty are the ones that are tight. This makes me feel bad because I feel the fashion industry forgot what being a normal size was."

Her instinct is correct: According to a study of more than 6,300 women by Cynthia Istook, an associate professor of apparel design and technology at North Carolina State University, only 8% of American women actually have the hourglass-shaped body that the apparel industry uses as its standard. Istook found that most women (66%) are either shaped like rectangles (the waist is closer to the circumference of the bust and hips) or pears (hips are larger than the bust by 2 inches or more).

The fashion world does make accommodations, though. In the last decade or so, manufacturers have adjusted sizes to reflect the reality that Americans are getting fatter. "They've changed sizes because girls are bigger. A 6 is no longer a 6," said Laura Groppe, president of Girls Intelligence Agency, a research and marketing company that studies girls and women up to age 29 for clients who include apparel, cosmetics and entertainment firms. "Psychologically, we all remember when we had to go to the next size up. And so the apparel industry has said, 'They can't handle being told they are size 5 already, so let's make it a bigger 5.' "

Tim Kaeding is creative director for 7 for All Mankind, the Vernon company that helped launch the premium jeans craze of the last several years. "Women, I have learned over many years, believe they are one size, and in the jeans world especially, size is not a precise science. It's almost an irrelevant, made-up numbering system." However, he added, he knows many people who have a firm notion about what size they are. "I know girls who think they are a 28," he said, referring to the waist size, "and if they are a 29, then, by God, they are going to buy a 28 anyway."

But no matter what size someone thinks she ought to wear, if her body is not built to hold a low-waisted pair of jeans in place, she's going to have trouble, said Istook. "If you want them to stay on, they have to be tight. We've noticed that this style makes people look fat who aren't really fat, and it makes the people who are fat look much worse."

Young men are not oblivious to the legions of girls wearing too-tight clothes. Bryce Widelitz, a 19-year-old college student who works as a day camp counselor in Cheviot Hills, said he thinks two things when he sees this: "My first impression is that it's just disgusting," he said apologetically. "My second impression is that they are just trying to be like everyone else and fit in: 'Everyone else is wearing it, so why can't I?' "

His friend Daniel Treibatch, also 19, pinpoints the disconnect between the images the culture hurls at young women and what young women really look like. "I see it every day on the streets. These girls see what is stereotypical in L.A. — all the advertisements and all the girls on TV — and they want to emulate what they see."

The whole issue of overweight and appropriate fit is ticklish, which quickly became apparent one recent Saturday at the Lakewood Center. The mall was full of shoppers, and it was easy to spot Sausage Casing Girls, though difficult to engage a conversation. No young woman wanted to admit — to a reporter, anyway — that she was chubby and her clothes simply didn't fit. Two 14-year-olds from Compton strolled along, one of whom, a plump girl named Veronica, looked uncomfortable in her sprayed-on jeans and body-hugging yellow T-shirt. She denied that she was uncomfortable and denied her clothes were too small: "We still shop in juniors. We'll go to bigger sizes when we're not juniors anymore." Other people, she said, "probably pick smaller clothes to look skinnier."

For the last four months, Sophana Soth has been a sales associate at Forever 21, a chain store that sells trendy clothes at a bargain. When Soth stands watch at the dressing room entrance, she said, she sees a stream of girls who try to squeeze themselves into too-small outfits. "For me, it's really uncomfortable seeing them because their bellies are popping out and you can see the tight marks and on their arms too," she said.

Browsing the Forever 21 racks with the ultimate accessory — a tiny dog named Toby — 20-year-old Jennifer Fuentes was stylishly dressed in a short skirt, low-cut top and leggings. She'd like to lose a few pounds, she said, but isn't interested in getting "all thin and anorexic." When an overweight girl in very tight clothes walked by, she said, "The thing is, sometimes big girls try to wear something tight, thinking it will make them look better, but they should cover up. Their shirts rise up and their bellies fall out. People try to squeeze themselves into something that doesn't fit right."

Blanca Perez is a self-confident 26-year-old Los Angeles County animal control officer who is 5 feet, 8 inches and 230 pounds. "There is such a thing as a cute fat chick," she said, "and that's me." She loves body-hugging clothes and she loves dressing up, but she will not wear clothes that are too small just to make a point to herself.

"I do see that a lot, though. I see too many girls with their belly hanging out and their jeans too tight and it's not cute." She has a younger cousin who is chubby and insists on wearing clothes that are a few sizes too small. "She thinks she looks cute," Perez said. When she called the cousin to see if she would consent to an interview, the girl burst into tears and hung up. Three days later, Perez reported, her cousin was still hurt and upset.
Pavement Ist Rad
QUOTE(Ben @ Jul 4 2006, 09:26 AM) [snapback]124030[/snapback]

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'There is such a thing as a cute fat chick, and that’s me.'


First part may be true, but it doesn't apply to you. Sorry. Nick to thread.

lol @ "Sausage Casing"
Binko
QUOTE(Pavement Ist Rad @ Jul 4 2006, 09:44 AM) [snapback]124036[/snapback]

QUOTE(Ben @ Jul 4 2006, 09:26 AM) [snapback]124030[/snapback]



First part may be true, but it doesn't apply to you. Sorry. Nick to thread.

lol @ "Sausage Casing"


She don't do it for me, either, but I can see how somebody can find her cute.

It is a rather bizarre article, but I can't exactly say I disagree with anything in it. I like my girls in all sorts of sizes, but muffin tops are disgusting. It's about as sexy as me letting my hairy beer belly hang out. No thanks.

Pavement Ist Rad
What the hell is "Sausage Casing"?
Ben
It's what your bratwurst is wrapped in.

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Have any of you heard this lingo before? I'm surprised that a major newspaper would compare women to overstuffed meat products and get cheeky about the weight they carry around their stomachs. It flys directly in the face of the feminist principle that overweight people shouldn't be singled our or considered unattractive and worthy of shame simply because of their size. You can try to draw the distinction that this article isn't about overweight women, but instead the problem of women wearing clothing that's physically too small for them, but good luck with that.
Binko
QUOTE(Ben @ Jul 4 2006, 09:58 AM) [snapback]124043[/snapback]

It's what your bratwurst is wrapped in.

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Have any of you heard this lingo before?


I've never heard "sausage casing" in a newspaper, but, yeah, "muffin top" has been used in The Sun Times, at least a few times. There was a whole article on muffin tops about two months ago in the paper.

QUOTE

You can try to draw the distinction that this article isn't about overweight women, but instead the problem of women wearing clothing that's physically too small for them, but good luck with that.


Well, that's how I read it, but I can see how overweight women in general may have a problem with the article.
Binko
Here's the Sun-Times article of which I speak, headlined "Fashion tip: Tuck that flab in!"

And here's an August 3, 2005 article from the Detroit Free Press about "muffin tops" and "cankles." (I term I had actually only heard for the first time about two weeks ago). From what I gather, the Free Press article may be one of the earliest newspaper citations to that term. An enterprising soul with Lexis-Nexis and some time to kill could say more defnitively.
Ben
The first person I ever heard use the word cankles was John Madden.
Jackson Hole
Gross. If you're fat, you should dress appropriately.

Even some of those not obese girls with the big belly flab who insist on wearing revealing midriff shirts? What the hell is up witht hat?

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red
Why do you say that this article is Bizzare? Girls have body issues thanks to our society's standards of beauty. They wear clothes that are too small because they can't bear the thought of wearing a size bigger and they want to wear fashionable clothes. It's a mental thing. It's a lot different for girls than it is for guys. Especially young girls. There is a lot of pressure to fit in and look good. And kids can be cruel. I think it's sad and somewhat eye opening, not bizzare.

Yeah, "muffin tops" (the term actually made me laugh - I'd never heard it before) are disgusting and I'm sick of seeing girls in clothes that are too small, but it comes from a sad place really. Of course, some of them might just be slutty and they want to let it all hang out, but that probably comes from insecurity, as well.

Anyhow, that's my two cents. blah, blah, blah...
Ben
QUOTE(Red74 @ Jul 4 2006, 12:24 PM) [snapback]124064[/snapback]
Why do you say that this article is Bizzare?
QUOTE(Ben @ Jul 4 2006, 10:58 AM) [snapback]124043[/snapback]
I'm surprised that a major newspaper would compare women to overstuffed meat products and get cheeky about the weight they carry around their stomachs. It flys directly in the face of the feminist principle that overweight people shouldn't be singled our or considered unattractive and worthy of shame simply because of their size. You can try to draw the distinction that this article isn't about overweight women, but instead the problem of women wearing clothing that's physically too small for them, but good luck with that.
Because the language and frame they use is flirting with the dreaded label of political incorrectness.

Here's one feminist blogger who's already sounding off.
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Of course, it’s doubtful that this writer would be so bothered if a thin woman wasn’t aware of how thin she was, or if she didn’t relish her skinny figure. As for their bodies looking good, these women are never going to look “good” by the writer’s standards if we universally define “good” as “skinny.” The best bigger women can do, I guess, is button up and hide themselves from neck to ankles so that the skinny among us won’t be subjected to their offensive appearance.
Jackson Hole
QUOTE(Ben @ Jul 4 2006, 11:26 AM) [snapback]124067[/snapback]



Here's one feminist blogger who's already sounding off.
QUOTE
Of course, it’s doubtful that this writer would be so bothered if a thin woman wasn’t aware of how thin she was, or if she didn’t relish her skinny figure. As for their bodies looking good, these women are never going to look “good” by the writer’s standards if we universally define “good” as “skinny.” The best bigger women can do, I guess, is button up and hide themselves from neck to ankles so that the skinny among us won’t be subjected to their offensive appearance.



but fat/obese is as bad as anorexia. Too skinny is gross too. Look at Nicole Richie. She's a fucking disgusting skeleton. I don't want to see that on my TV anymore than I want to see some gross pig fucker with her belly hanging out or her bologna tits pouring out from her too-tight shirt.
undo
QUOTE(Ben @ Jul 4 2006, 09:26 AM) [snapback]124030[/snapback]
Etcoff said that one of her patients, a 16-year-old girl, was traumatized in front of friends when one held up a pair of her size 7/8 jeans and said, "You wear these? I could get two of me in here."

Time to get some new friends. What a bitch.
Ben
QUOTE(Jackson Hole @ Jul 4 2006, 12:38 PM) [snapback]124072[/snapback]
but fat/obese is as bad as anorexia. Too skinny is gross too.
While I only quoted a small portion of the post (and the subsequent discussion with readers) I think one of the blogger's main points is that she reads the story as only talking about overweight women, a focus that represents the biased value that fat = ugly problem.

So Undo digs on this muffin top thing. Anybody else?
red
QUOTE(Ben @ Jul 4 2006, 11:26 AM) [snapback]124067[/snapback]

QUOTE(Red74 @ Jul 4 2006, 12:24 PM) [snapback]124064[/snapback]
Why do you say that this article is Bizzare?
QUOTE(Ben @ Jul 4 2006, 10:58 AM) [snapback]124043[/snapback]
I'm surprised that a major newspaper would compare women to overstuffed meat products and get cheeky about the weight they carry around their stomachs. It flys directly in the face of the feminist principle that overweight people shouldn't be singled our or considered unattractive and worthy of shame simply because of their size. You can try to draw the distinction that this article isn't about overweight women, but instead the problem of women wearing clothing that's physically too small for them, but good luck with that.
Because the language and frame they use is flirting with the dreaded label of political incorrectness.

Oh, that I definitely agree with. I guess I was reading between the lines more than I was focusing on the potentially offensive nature of the language and frame.

Here's one feminist blogger who's already sounding off.
QUOTE
Of course, it’s doubtful that this writer would be so bothered if a thin woman wasn’t aware of how thin she was, or if she didn’t relish her skinny figure. As for their bodies looking good, these women are never going to look “good” by the writer’s standards if we universally define “good” as “skinny.” The best bigger women can do, I guess, is button up and hide themselves from neck to ankles so that the skinny among us won’t be subjected to their offensive appearance.


I completely get what she's saying here and I agree that these women will never look "good" by the writers standards if we define good as "skinny", but girls wearing clothes two sizes too small aren't doing anything to change society's standards on beauty. I don't think big women need to cover up from head to toe, but there is such a thing as dressing tastefully. You can be plus size and sexy if you do it right. Some people (men and women), would disagree, but they are pigs. tongue.gif



Ben
What do you mean "do it right?"

You are just inviting a feminist critique there.
nosmokeinthelungs
It is amazing the lengths girls/women will go to follow the crowd and the status quo when it comes to materialism and trend regarding fashion
Pavement Ist Rad
Ah, a Google Image Search for "muffin top" explains it all to me. It ain't necessary, but it's certainly not a turn-off by any means. Eh...
Jackson Hole
Torrid is available for plus sized women to get their hot on. Don't squeeze into a 10 if you're a 16, honey.
BigFatAl
Fat women should not wear skinny clothes. Men can let it all hang out. More acceptable for men to be fat. I am fat but I would never let my wife get fat. I'd divorce her in a heartbeat. Women are supposed to be pretty and skinny. Sorry ladies but that's the way it is.
red
QUOTE(Ben @ Jul 4 2006, 12:01 PM) [snapback]124087[/snapback]

What do you mean "do it right?"

You are just inviting a feminist critique there.

I mean wear the correct size. Plain and simple.

QUOTE(Jackson Hole @ Jul 4 2006, 12:18 PM) [snapback]124097[/snapback]

Torrid is available for plus sized women to get their hot on. Don't squeeze into a 10 if you're a 16, honey.

amen, brother.
Ben
But how do you determine the correct size? Is your point that overweight women ought not to reveal their skin at all? That's "incorrect" for them to do?

The classic feminist critique the blogger offers stands on two premises. If you want to disagree with her, I think you have to reject at least one of them. As I read it, they are:

1. There is no justifiable reason for disciminating between slim and thick women. Society's biases and prejudice against large people are, right here in this article, singling out and shaming thick women just for being naturally thick. All they are doing is exactly what everyone else is doing. Why must they be marginalized?

2. For the most part, being "overweight" (itself a value-laden term) cannot be blamed on a thick person. Size is either the uncontrollable result of genetics or the product of a cruel socialization process.
Slap Nutz
If I was morbidly obese, I would like as little of my skin showing as possible. Apparently I'm alone here when it comes to the world of overweight women.
BigFatAl
QUOTE(Ben @ Jul 4 2006, 12:35 PM) [snapback]124105[/snapback]

But how do you determine the correct size? Is your point that overweight women ought not to reveal their skin at all? That's "incorrect" for them to do?

The classic feminist critique the blogger offer stands on two principles. If you want to disagree with her, I think you have to reject at least one of them. As I read it, they are:

1. There is no justifiable reason for disciminating between slim and thick women. Society's biases and prejudice against large people are, right here in this article, singling out and shaming thick women just for being naturally thick. All they are doing is exactly what everyone else is doing. Why must they be marginalized?

2. For the most part, being "overweight" (itself a value-laden term) cannot be blamed on a thick person. Size is either the uncontrollable result of genetics or the product of a cruel socialization process.


Most women can help being fatasses. These fat broads shouldn't wear slinky clothing. Men don't want to see fat broads in skinny clothes. They need to get themselves to a gym or Jenny Craig.
undo
QUOTE(Sausage II: Pornograffitti @ Jul 4 2006, 12:37 PM) [snapback]124106[/snapback]

morbidly obese

Well yeah, but that's something else altogether.
shampoosuicide
there's nothing worse than a cocky fat girl.
I'm sorry but unless you have a medical condition preventing you from losing weight, it should not be socially acceptable to be that big. This goes for both sexes.
undo
Funny how at the same time, petite women are crying foul at the fashion choices they have.
Ben
Ha. ABC ripped that story right off the front page of the Times. The media so crazy. One front-page story in late May about the complaints got the department stores to back down. link

The interesting question it raises: Is there any difference, besides the obvious physical stuff, between being short and being overweight? To me, it sounds like the feminist argument says there isn't.
BigFatAl
QUOTE(Ben @ Jul 4 2006, 01:13 PM) [snapback]124136[/snapback]

Ha. ABC ripped that story right off the front page of the Times. The media so crazy. One front-page story in late May about the complaints got the department stores to back down. link

The interesting question it raises: Is there any difference, besides the obvious physical stuff, between being short and being overweight? To me, it sounds like the feminist argument says there isn't.



Being petite can't be helped. My wife is 5'1. Being fat can be helped. You better believe I weigh her. No wife of mine is getting fat.
undo
I don't really get the sense that there's any big stigma attached to shortness in women, at least not anything like the one that overweight women have to carry.

We all like short girls, right? I know that Supermodels are expected to be a certain height but I think this is one area where most guys haven't conformed to such ideals.

On second thought, I'm not going to do this today.
BigFatAl
QUOTE(undo @ Jul 4 2006, 01:19 PM) [snapback]124146[/snapback]

I don't really get the sense that there's any big stigma attached to shortness in women, at least not anything like the one that overweight women have to carry.

We all like short girls, right? We don't really expect all women to be tall like supermodels? Do we?



I like short women. I dated a taller woman in college (5'6"ish) and found her too upity. No tall women for me.
Ben
So male sexual interest should be the guiding principle in determining the propriety of female appearance?
BigFatAl
QUOTE(Ben @ Jul 4 2006, 01:25 PM) [snapback]124155[/snapback]

So male sexual interest should be the guiding principle in determining the propriety of female appearance?


Yes. Men are the natural leaders. Women look good to appeal to men.
lesypersound
QUOTE(Ben @ Jul 4 2006, 12:35 PM) [snapback]124105[/snapback]
The classic feminist critique the blogger offers stands on two premises. If you want to disagree with her, I think you have to reject at least one of them. As I read it, they are:

1. There is no justifiable reason for disciminating between slim and thick women. Society's biases and prejudice against large people are, right here in this article, singling out and shaming thick women just for being naturally thick. All they are doing is exactly what everyone else is doing. Why must they be marginalized?

2. For the most part, being "overweight" (itself a value-laden term) cannot be blamed on a thick person. Size is either the uncontrollable result of genetics or the product of a cruel socialization process.


Thick and Fat aren't interchangeable.

Also--who's anyone to tell us what another person (the writer) thinks or means. You don't know if he likes BBW. Also, if a woman, of any size, knows how to dress--is classy--and takes care of herself than she's beautiful in her own way. If you look like yer trying too hard to make yerself sexy by wearing supertight jeans to the point where yer tummy fat and back fat are overflowing--SORRY but that's f'in disgusting. It just reflects how owned and stupid that girl is if she can't see how disgusting she'd look to the rest of the world.

The original article as I read it isn't about attacking women's self esteem--rather, muffin tops reflect how misguided some females in our society are. How damaged, owned, stupid, and tasteless a lot of ppl are.

Yeah, but in reality--I don't care. People can look as stupid and owned as they want--and I still wouldn't completely write them off as tools. At least they're trying to feel good about themselves (in a completely empty, soul crushing, and disgusting-for-the-rest-of-us way).



And people, please stop talking about women as if we're a commodity. OH, you don't like tall women? wait wait, that model of femme is too fat. oh oh, this one is too skinny. stfu, really--i realize some of you are joking around--but in that sense that's where the whole "feminist" prespective some of you seem to be mildly making fun of is attacking.

Women should stop being objectified, valued or reduced to petty physical features.
Jackson Hole
QUOTE(Ben @ Jul 4 2006, 12:35 PM) [snapback]124105[/snapback]

But how do you determine the correct size?


How do you know what size pants to buy? Are you really asking this question?

QUOTE
Is your point that overweight women ought not to reveal their skin at all? That's "incorrect" for them to do?



Not at all. But don't reveal a midriff if you've got your midriff and two other people's on your person as well.
Ben
QUOTE(lesypersound @ Jul 4 2006, 03:19 PM) [snapback]124213[/snapback]
Thick and Fat aren't interchangeable.
Ha. I'm glad somebody called me on this. In an effort to put forward the hardline feminist argument as the devil's advocate, I tried to come up with something a little more 'value neutral,' as they say.
QUOTE
Also--who's anyone to tell us what another person (the writer) thinks or means. You don't know if he likes BBW.
Careful. The writer is a female. Old LATimes clips confirm it.

The question from the litcrit feminist POV isn't what the writer likes, it's what the writer wrote. And if you read that blog I linked you will see how a typical feminist argument seeks to evaluate the portrayal of women, particularly in relation other social groups, espeically those omitted from the narrative.
QUOTE
Also, if a woman, of any size, knows how to dress--is classy--and takes care of herself than she's beautiful in her own way. If you look like yer trying too hard to make yerself sexy by wearing supertight jeans to the point where yer tummy fat and back fat are overflowing--SORRY but that's f'in disgusting. It just reflects how owned and stupid that girl is if she can't see how disgusting she'd look to the rest of the world.

The original article as I read it isn't about attacking women's self esteem--rather, muffin tops reflect how misguided some females in our society are. How damaged, owned, stupid, and tasteless a lot of ppl are.
Yes, but, again, if you read it closely you'll see that the feminist argument seeks to condemn exactly that sort of evaluation. You're saying excessive exposed fat = ugly. They're questioning that judgement. Raising the volume of your voice doesn't make the question disappear. Where does this taste you talk about come from? Some feminists would say it comes from a prejudiced patriarchy.
QUOTE
Women should stop being objectified, valued or reduced to petty physical features.
But didn't you just make exactly that judgement about women who expose their petty little love handles in a manner you find unattractive?

Obviously, like all culture war debates, the underlying theme here that's going undiscussed is the tension between nature and society. I hear people talking about innate elements of attraction and disgust, as well as how people struggle with issues of alienation and responsibility within the forced strictures of civilization. One fun thing to think about is if any of this would have mattered to what Enlightment thinkers liked to call the natural man. Way back when, before modern civilization, when our ancestors were clubbing each other over acorns, do you think anybody worried about a muffin top?
red
Ben makes a lot of good points. I'm too tired to get into this much more as I've argued this many times, but basically what it comes down to, in my opinion, is that our culture says that fat = unattractive. It's programmed into us at an early age. It's everywhere. I blame a lot of it on the media. It's everywhere. Skinny=pretty. You have to wear these clothes, have this hairstyle, and be this size to be accepted. Look at all of these beauty magazines targeted at teens and pre-teens: Cosmo Girl, Teen Vogue, Elle, Glamour, etc. Girls see this and think this is how they should look. And believe it or not, some girls just can't be that skinny unless they starve themselves. Some girls are naturally bigger.

Someone said people shouldn't be that fat unless it is due to a medical condition. Well, does a slow metabolism and genetics count as a medical condition? I know a lot of overweight people, men and women who come from overweight families. Now, granted it could be in many cases that bad eating/exercise habits have been passed down from one generation to the next, but the fact is genetics do play a role. We all know at least one skinny person who can eat all day long and not gain a pound, but what about people who eat regularly and exercise and can't lose weight? I know women who feel like they are killing themselves just to stay below 140 and I know other women who weigh 120 and don't even have to think about it and don't exercise.

blah, blah, blah...I'm done talking about this. Check out the video here. go to the page and click play video. Jean Kilbourne has been fighting these issues since the 1970s.

Now I'm off to go run 4 miles. hmm...go figure. wink.gif


p.s. Two ladies who would be plus size by today's standards: Betty Page & Marilyn Monroe. Hot or not?
SkinnyHips
QUOTE(Red74 @ Jul 4 2006, 05:56 PM) [snapback]124318[/snapback]

Skinny=pretty.



why thank you red
Nick
I'm pretty sure only skinny girls post on the internet.
kalmia
QUOTE(Nick @ Jul 4 2006, 09:00 PM) [snapback]124380[/snapback]

I'm pretty sure only skinny girls post on the internet.



you are correct
lesypersound
QUOTE(Ben @ Jul 4 2006, 05:01 PM) [snapback]124289[/snapback]

QUOTE(lesypersound @ Jul 4 2006, 03:19 PM) [snapback]124213[/snapback]
Thick and Fat aren't interchangeable.
Ha. I'm glad somebody called me on this. In an effort to put forward the hardline feminist argument as the devil's advocate, I tried to come up with something a little more 'value neutral,' as they say.
QUOTE
Also--who's anyone to tell us what another person (the writer) thinks or means. You don't know if he likes BBW.
Careful. The writer is a female. Old LATimes clips confirm it.

Doesn't matter--this female could still think some BBW are just that--big beautiful women. Disliking fat rolls doesn't automatically tell the reader that the author thinks thick or big-boned women are ugly -- one can't even suppose or assume that the author thinks "fat" women who dress with some taste are unable to be beautiful--at least from what I read in the original article.

QUOTE
The question from the litcrit feminist POV isn't what the writer likes, it's what the writer wrote. And if you read that blog I linked you will see how a typical feminist argument seeks to evaluate the portrayal of women, particularly in relation other social groups, espeically those omitted from the narrative.
QUOTE
Also, if a woman, of any size, knows how to dress--is classy--and takes care of herself than she's beautiful in her own way. If you look like yer trying too hard to make yerself sexy by wearing supertight jeans to the point where yer tummy fat and back fat are overflowing--SORRY but that's f'in disgusting. It just reflects how owned and stupid that girl is if she can't see how disgusting she'd look to the rest of the world.

The original article as I read it isn't about attacking women's self esteem--rather, muffin tops reflect how misguided some females in our society are. How damaged, owned, stupid, and tasteless a lot of ppl are.
Yes, but, again, if you read it closely you'll see that the feminist argument seeks to condemn exactly that sort of evaluation. You're saying excessive exposed fat = ugly. They're questioning that judgement. Raising the volume of your voice doesn't make the question disappear. Where does this taste you talk about come from? Some feminists would say it comes from a prejudiced patriarchy.


Well, these feminists are thowing the baby out with the bath water or however that expression goes. I personally dislike this idea that all culture that isn't built up by whatever sect of feminist thought = patriarchy--especially when it has to do with women on women issues. Are women so weak and victimized that we can't do or be responsible for anything at all? I personally don't believe that.
Anyway, there's something that has to be said for good taste and discretion that can be concluded without having your mindset completely or blatantly owned by male-centered thought. Sure, there may be no escape from bias, but what the "Sausage Casing Girls" are doing reflects the opposite of freedom and self-actualization of females by females in my opinion.

I feel these feminist critics should focus on the perceived problem in the article: the warped mentality "sausage casing girls" have about their bodies. instead of attacking the idea of muffin tops being fugly.
Fat = ugly isn't so much a gender issue in my opinion, although since women are held to stricter standards of beauty it's more of an acute problem in that half of the species w/o a doubt--but all this is tied into larger issues of body-image which are rooted in the objectification of women.
Sure body image issues aren't limited to females, but I feel that how women see themselves and how its shaped by society, men, and other women are rooted in the affects of gender assumptions. SO, in my mind--this (body image) is a much more important issue to interpret thru feminist thought than the idea of fat being fugly (which potentially and realistically affects fat boys as much as fat girls).

And how big is this muffin top = fug problem when the article is all about Sausage Casing Girls walking around all day, everyday with muffin tops? Apparently the idea of muffin tops being ugly isn't a problem for these young women. SO, yeah... ppl ought to deal with the real problem of young women not accepting their bodies as is and not wearing appropriate-size clothing.


QUOTE
QUOTE
Women should stop being objectified, valued or reduced to petty physical features.
But didn't you just make exactly that judgement about women who expose their petty little love handles in a manner you find unattractive?

Obviously, like all culture war debates, the underlying theme here that's going undiscussed is the tension between nature and society. I hear people talking about innate elements of attraction and disgust, as well as how people struggle with issues of alienation and responsibility within the forced strictures of civilization. One fun thing to think about is if any of this would have mattered to what Enlightment thinkers liked to call the natural man. Way back when, before modern civilization, when our ancestors were clubbing each other over acorns, do you think anybody worried about a muffin top?

I think this is a moot point because why would prehistoric females feel the need to force themselves into extremely tight and uncomfortable clothes? I suppose this is a chicken or the egg type of situation--and for me the real problem is the mentality (the egg) that creates the muffin top (the chicken). The honest and well-thought-out criticism of the muffin top phenom isn't the problem.


And, for me--a person isn't "fat" when they're at their healthy and natural weight. If they're big-boned then that's their thing and I love diversity. "Fat people" in my mind (I know I may be an odd one) are the ppl who are overweight because they don't exercise and over eat...and in that respect that's what most ppl and society frown down upon when they think of fat--people who supposedly have no self-control.


I'm getting tired of blaming all of society for womens' poor self image. Women have done this to themselves in a large degree (it's lazy and inaccurate to only blame patriarchy, men, or mass media--I refuse to believe that I as a female am a victim all the time)...ofcourse society/mass media and advertising certainly don't help anybody free their minds.
In order to help young women not become "sausage casing girls" and to truly embrace some radical feminist thought--it all starts with their mothers and adults accept the diversity of healthy human shapes and sizes.
Often times, at least in my experience, the girls with the most messed up body image issues are the ones with crap mothers who tell them they're fat or emphasize weight and impossible or male-created/centered standards of beauty. Other times ppl just get warped ideas in their heads and w/o parents or adults addressing these issues and strengthening the core of a young girl's identity (not letting her objectify or reduce her worth to b.s. beauty standards--i.e. emphasizing health over weight)--then sure, if you leave young girls alone with mass media as it is and b.s. society attacking them from all sides they will get caught up in b.s. body image issues.

I'm just for more positive action rather than blog critiques of the chicken (muffin top = fug), which came after the egg (b.s. warped body image ideas) in this particular case. :]


In the end...muffin tops and f'in ugly because its in poor taste to have love handles all out in the public to see. Bulges of fat, cottage cheese cellulite, and stretch marks are ugly on a girl or a guy.
It isn't wrong to point out the fact that some ppl forget this b/c they think fitting into those jeans = teh sex while their bulges of flesh = eye sore to the rest of society; because they're too caught up in their warped image of beauty and have no taste or style. Eww and I really sound like an elitist? dry.gif :shrugs:


mellow.gif long enough? yeesh. sorry ppl. laugh.gif
just reading this over w/ the vocab makes the whole thing hilarious. The chicken = the muffin top? Hahaha. Anyway, I hope all of this made some sense. and thanks Ben for playing devil's advocate.
Ben
Now we gotten to the core dilemma, haven't we? Having, along with the feminists, discarded the traditional gender roles of male provider and female procreator, what is it that we're left with? A bewildering mixture of instincts, rights and responsibilities.

If, as you say, we're warped -- and I think almost all modern critics probably look at the world this way to some degree -- society, with its petty bourgeois goals or cruel technology of destruction, is in some way defiling our natural state.

What I hearing from you as the solution is a commonly bantered strategy, and is actually a small subject of the book I'm reading, and that's the Woody Allen response. Just like Zelig, we have the option of trying on all sorts of different roles, playing the part of this or that in whatever clothing it is that we can afford, but it's not until we listen to ourselves and follow some inner-directed vision that we can succeed in finding satisfaction through, to use your word, "self actualization."

Is that it? Do all the sausage casing girls just need to look within? Wasn't that a Boo Radleys song?
TJENZ
IPB Image
fat bottomed girls you make the rockin' world go round
el douche
I kind of like the muffin tops. But I'm a "chubby chaser."
alternachick (Cathy)
I love when men decide what woman can/should wear (sarcasm). I think everyone should choose clothes that flatter their figure. This includes men who wear spandex and shouldn't.
Jackson Hole
I agree ^^^
ddd
wtf is a 'muffin top'
ToriAimless
QUOTE(deej @ Jul 5 2006, 03:30 PM) [snapback]124881[/snapback]

wtf is a 'muffin top'

try reading a bit before you spout off, fucktard
yancy
QUOTE(deej @ Jul 5 2006, 03:30 PM) [snapback]124881[/snapback]
wtf is a 'muffin top'
Girl whose belly is bigger than her ass wearing tight low-rise pants. Yuck.
ToriAimless
fat chicks know how to suck a dick, who cares what clothes they wear?
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