i watched the original trilogy with my fiancee a couple weeks back. she hadn't seen those movies in twenty-odd years. it was nice to go back to three of my favorite movies of all time. only, this time, due to the first three episodes coming out (and my love for Episode III), they looked quite a bit different.

two things stood out for me:
1) Han Solo, my hero of heroes when i was 8 years old, comes off more as a doofus in these movies.
2) Luke Skywalker, the young whiner of a puss Jedi when i was 8 years old, comes off with a lot more relevance.

say all you want about the poor acting, the not-so-great dialogue, the little boy, Jar Jar, the whiny teenage Anakin, and "Nooooooooooooo," but i think Episode III is the best of all six episodes and certainly the darkest and most emotional. i don' think Episode I was a great movie, but it was certainly a really good prologue for what came afterwards.

and those Jedi Knights were badasses (especially as the Episodes progressed). if you get a chance, watch the CLONE WARS animated shorts that were on the Cartoon Network and can now be watched on two separate DVD's.

i've got more to say, but i'm at work...

a lot of people would say that the love story between Anakin and Padme was crap. i don't recognize it as anything all that special, myself, but what were we expecting? Casablanca? was their love story supposed to be THAT much more special because Padme gave birth to Luke and Leia?

Padme was really pushed into the background for Episode III (and so was C3PO). she didn't really have that much depth or dialogue ~ certainly not as much as she did in Episode II. but this whole movie was about Anakin, his fall from grace and the ensuing consequences.

the real dynamic was between Anakin and Obi-Wan. more later...

Get a blog.

I'm afraid I'll always get the episode numbers confused. I know them as Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back, Return of The Jedi, The Phantom Menace (substitute "Plot" for "Menace", as you like), and the other two I haven't seen, and really don't have a compelling interest to see. Sorry if I rained on your parade. I've lost that Star Wars feeling...after being sooooooo into it as a kid.

Star Wars in ranking order of goodness:
1. Episode III: Revenge of the Sith (badass on all levels)
2. Episode V: Empire Strikes Back (badass on all levels)
3. Episode VI: Return of the Jedi (badass until Ewoks, but then fully justified with cool ending with Luke/Emperor/Vader: Made more potent by awesomeness of Episode III)
4. Episode IV: A New Hope (A Classic, but a little fruity. Vader fighting Obi Wan is a little weak, some over the top stuff. But, a classic)
5. Episode I: The Phantom Menace (Great sound. Great affects in certain parts: the underwater monster, the pod race, Darth Maul fight scene. But, overall you need a DVD player to skip over a lot of nonsense.)
6. Episode II: The Clone Wars (Bad graphics galore. Very bad scene in the factory. Very bad acting. Very bad battle scenes. Some good stuff, but overall the worst and not very watchable except a few scenes)

Dude...go take a shower...you've mingled with people that practice kissing girls on the back of their hand and sh*t! There's still hope for you, J., but you've got to act quickly!

Godspeed!

Compared to Episode V, Episode III is a fucking joke.

a lot of people would say that the love story between Anakin and Padme was crap. i don't recognize it as anything all that special, myself, but what were we expecting? Casablanca? was their love story supposed to be THAT much more special because Padme gave birth to Luke and Leia?The atrocious acting by Padme is un-acceptable. She's just terrible. To me, it only really bothered me in the stinker Clone Wars (which has some good scenes, of course) in the field, etc.)

Padme was really pushed into the background for Episode III (and so was C3PO). she didn't really have that much depth or dialogue ~ certainly not as much as she did in Episode II. but this whole movie was about Anakin, his fall from grace and the ensuing consequences.If it wasn't for the baby, he never would have turned. He knew Padme was going to die because his premonitions were so vivid and accurate. He had to turn to try and save her: which means he was really a good guy all the way through. He gave himself up to try and save his love. Overall, it was a self sacrifice, but one he had to do.

It's always met with a "ohhhh, you're so cool, asshole" response, but I can't let a Star Wars thread pass without noting that I've still yet to see a single Star Wars movie from start to finish.

Yeah, seriously. Anakin's transformation hinges on his relationship with Padme. The relationship isn't even remotely believable or interesting, so his transformation is neither believable nor interesting.
I would have rather seen them explore the democracy/dictatorship angle (Vader's "we can bring order to the universe" / Anakin's "democracy = squabbling"). They could have dumped some more political commentary without trying too hard.
Ok movie but not as good as any of the first three.

i don't see the relevance of not seeing a star wars movie and levels of "cool"

by never seeing the original (at least), you are missing on a movie that changed a generation, in culture and in the way movies were made

see all sides before making judgements

Episode III ~ best opening sequence and light sabre fights, ever.

raj otm, relationship was stressed so much and important to the plot but the acting and the dialogue gave you no reason to care. Padme was a wooden plank.

It's all flash - and it's great flash - but there's no drama to it. All that noise can't match the thrilling, simple dread of seeing that triangular star destroyer (from that brilliantly odd, low angle) crawl onto the screen, inevitably gaining on the cruiser in A New Hope. It's like comparing some flowery, overblown orchestral piece to Beethoven going "dun-dun-dun-duuun".

Edit: I mean, are we seriously comparing Darth Vader's entrance to placeholder no-name villain Darth Tyrannus and R2D2 doing Three Stooges droid slapstick in the hanger? Let's not all go insane at once please.

I certainly don't see it as being relevant to a level of "cool." I was just referring to all the sarcastic comments I get when I tell people that I've never seen one. Also, I don't care that it changed a generation or the way movies are made. Even as I kid I thought they looked stupid. I haven't the slightest bit of interest in seeing one of these damned movies. Trust me, I don't think this makes me cool in any way, shape, or form.

Now go about your business.

while i give you the fact that the opening to STAR WARS was incredible ~ and, up to SAVING PRIVATE RYAN, the best opening of a movie ever in my eyes ~ i think the battle raging in front of (and below) Anakin and Obi-Wan has plenty of drama ~ metaphorically. whereas the opening of STAR WARS came out of nowhere and has that element of surprise (and dread), the beginning of Episode III has that "this is it ~ this is what we've been waiting 25 to 30 years for" implied in it.

it's also a very LONG opening sequence with a lot of things going on, if we place the end of it as the crash landing of half a ship on Coruscant.


and no, i'm not insane.

quit sounding like a jedi.... nonwatcher!!!!

And what is worse, the strong will and intelligence displayed by Padme in Ep.1 (such as it is) is reduced to "damsel in distress" level by the time Ep. 3 rolls in.

one of the things i wanted to comment on (as noted in my first post) is that these three movies lend the original trilogy added depth.

go back and watch the original trilogy and listen to some of the dialogue with what you know now after having watched the first three episodes.

these first three episodes are like listening to the deluxe versions of certain records. i'm reminded of Elvis Costello's GET HAPPY 2-disc set, where a lot of the alternate takes made the originals that much more interesting, or Pete Townshend's "Lifehouse" demos, which give you an alternate (actually a "prequel" ) universe to the music of WHO'S NEXT and its accompanying singles and B-sides.

Yeah, it's cool, I'm just using hyperbole.
I generally liked Episode III, and it has a pretty solid opening, but it's not as interesting as either A New Hope or Empire Strikes Back. There's no indellible image, as there is with the Vader standing in the doorway, or the "oh shit" moment of the walkers appearing on the horizon in Empire. Instead we have the personality-less Tyrannus to laboriously push the plot forward interspersed with pace-killing, unfunny R2D2 sequences.
General Greivious was a great addition to the film, and the whole thing kicks off a lot stronger than Eps 1 & 2, but there's no stunning visual imagery like in ANH and ESB.


I think they did a generally good job on expanding the sense of universe - nice details, like making the clone army gear look like prototypes for stuff that appears in the original movies.
I don't think your comparison is exactly apt, though, since you're talking about material that dates back to the creation of the original work - this is more like Pete Townshend overhauling Tommy as a live musical, or something similar.

x infinity. aggie made a funny.

We are all complete and total geeks. Empire is the best. "I am your father" anyone?

Wow. Me neither. If I mention it people look at me like I have a third eye.

And yet, we're both reading this thread. It's kind of amazing what we'll do to avoid work.

Agreed. Still, Ep. III was pretty damn good, and on a par with the originals.

Overall, I think the whole Anakin story is pretty good. The problems are really either peripheral to that (ie. Jar Jar), or just plain bad acting. The only major change I'd have made plotwise: less villains in the prequels. Darth Maul was good, but Dooku and Greivous were pretty weak and were never really fleshed out. And the idea of Dooku was pretty good as a fallen Jedi--I wish they had made his character more "grey" than comic-book-bad-guy.

I find it bizarre after a long career of disagreeing with Raj constantly, I find myself seeing eye to eye with him to a T ever since the board restarted. Wierd.

Think it even began earlier than that.


I still don't get how people are saying this, this opinion of it being on par, It was fun, a guilty pleasure, but it wasn't a cinematic masterpiece like IV and V were. I'd like to see what Episode III would have been like with a different angle. I think my problem was not how the story was told, but the story that was being told in the first place. Episode III was definitely not how I envision Anakins turn at all.

and imo the first two episodes are pretty superfluous.

I'm sorry, did you say something? I was listening to Disintegration really loud and didn't catch that...

Anyway, I'm surprised my view isn't the norm. I found the rush to proclaim Sith as good or even better than the originals - by a lot of critics, not just a few - pretty bizarre. I suppose I can see something of an argument for Sith > Return, as they are the best and worst from their respective trios, and they have very different strengths and weaknesses... but in my mind Return still has like a .5/10 edge.

The best Star Wars movie was Empire Strikes Back.

The best Lightsaber fight was in Empire Strikes Back. Luke vs. Darth Vader. Vader reveals that he's Luke's father. This was pretty shocking in 1980.

Nothing in any of the Star Wars movies could ever touch that.

The worst lightsaber fight was in Episode 4, Obi Wan vs. Vader. Dull.

Whether its intentional or unintentional (and I don't think it's intentional here), that comment, which I've heard it from many, can come across as holier-than-thou. It's kind of like people that brag they don't have a tv. Kind of carries a high brow vs. low brow connotation.

Anyway, I'd take Ep. III as the best. The final duel on the lava planet was worth the price of admission alone. Sure it had its bad moments (anytime padme and anakin were left alone on screen; and of course the infamous "Noooooooooo"), but highs in that film far outweighed the lows.

Not saying better. And maybe not even quite as good, especially compared to Empire. Still, Jedi had the Ewoks scenes, and the idea that the fearsome Empire was brought down by an army of primitively-armed teddy bears is about as dumb as anything else in the series. In my mind, this makes Ep. III about on par with Ep. VI.

Jedi's best moments still blow away III, if only it was more of an even piece of work.

What I want is an Episode VII with Sean Connery as Han Solo and Michael J. Fox as Luke Skywalker.

1) III - The best. The deepest. The most harrowing. The most intense. The pinncale.
2) V - Actual emotional resonance. Great cliffhanger. Opened the universe waaaaay up.
3) IV - Perfect space opera/serial homage. A bit quaint, but bolstered by Ep. III.
4) VI - Payoff w/ Yoda/Luke/Palpatine/Anakin is as good as anything in the series. Rest = sorta weak.
5) I - When bad, its really bad. But in light of the whole series, a surprisingly important episode. There's stuff to appreciate there. Gotta give Lucas props for taking the chances he did.
6) II - Sell-out to the fans? Most of this is filler. Could have been 10 minutes long. Anakin becomes Jedi, Anakin and Padme marry secretly, nothing else in this flick really matters.

I know I'm alone on this, but I adored Ep2. Pure popcorn entertainment front-to-back. I loved the non-stop aerial chase through Courascant. I loved gumshoe Obi Wan. I loved the Obi Wan-Jango fight in the rain. I loved the videogame-like factory scene. I loved the 45-minute climax that kept one-upping itself. Shit, I even loved the 3P0 one-liners

I've got a friend who's a Star Wars freak (conventions, dressed up as Darth Maul for halloween, dog named leah, etc.), and he convinced me to go see Ep. II for a second time in the theatre, but on an imax screen. What I learned upon arriving is that for some reason imax films can't be longer than 2 hours, so Lucas was forced to edit the movie; and he basically edited out all the anakin/padme romance scenes. Edits made the film exponentially more watchable...and I'd agree, it became a very fun popcorn flick.

True, Ep2 IMAX > Ep2 Theatrical

Anyone that thinks Ep III is on par with IV and V needs their head testing. Give me Empire and you can pretty much stick the rest.

I like all the prequals and felt there was anough good stuff in there to make them worthwhile. I like the way Lucas brought the whole story together and certainly his completion of his vision left me satisfied in a story sense.

There were problems though. Overuse of CGI. A lot of the special effects in the movies are amazing and groundbreaking. But there are some really poor sequences. The factory scene with C3PO sticks out as particularly bad. I also hated that animal that Obi Wan was riding in Ep III. The work on Yoda and Grevious was really good though. There was also as lot of really strange choices - such as having internal rooms (bedrooms, meeting rooms) CGI generated - that left the movies cold. What the hell is wrong with creating a set?

I'd love to see a special edition of this movie that actually took special effects OUT.

The main problem was the acting though. Lucas really struck out with his casting here. Portman, for all her fans, just doesn't deliver, and about the only thing Christianson had going for him was his height. He compeltely lacked the gravitis required for the role. Hamil and Fisher may not generally be great actors in their own right - but they just seemed to GET it so much better than the prequal actors. They had passion and personality that was totally missing from the prequals.






Yes, I was luck enough to catch the second part of this. It captured what I think was that Star Wars "feel" much better than the prequels themselves did. Especially that rollercoaster ride feeling the originals had.

Yeah, Clone Wars are the best from the prequel universe obv.

That would be me. Sorry.

Have any of you seen Star Wait yet? It will make your own personal geek quotent lower, and you can therefore hold yer head up at parties and proclaim, "Yeah, I may be a Star Wars geek, but at least I didn't wait in line for six weeks to see it."

They should make a movie about the idiots who waited for weeks (months?) outside of Mann's Chineese Theatre to see Episode III . . .

. . . even after they had been told that the movie wasn't going to show there on opening night.

They didn't believe it. Thought it was a scam to get them out of there. But it was true. It didn't play there opening night. Morons.

Padme was really pushed into the background for Episode III (and so was C3PO). she didn't really have that much depth or dialogue ~ certainly not as much as she did in Episode II. but this whole movie was about Anakin, his fall from grace and the ensuing consequences.If it wasn't for the baby, he never would have turned. He knew Padme was going to die because his premonitions were so vivid and accurate. He had to turn to try and save her: which means he was really a good guy all the way through. He gave himself up to try and save his love. Overall, it was a self sacrifice, but one he had to do.
[/quote]


Annikin was not a good guy. He turned because he was weak and afraid. "Fear leads to the dark side.."-Do I have to tell u geeks who said that?

Annikin becam a good guy and restored order to the force later. It just took longer than a bunch of dead jedis could stand.

Empire is best--and it's because of Yoda. The last one is 2nd though. I haven't felt that kind of closure since Return of the King. I never expected Lucas to do the last one so well. I mean there are parts where it really hits me emotionally. Just like New Hope always does.

"Now let's blow this thing so we can go home."

Same people. It's in the bonus footage of the Star Wait DVD. And yeah - !

Justifying Anakin's turn was the worst part of the film. I was hoping he'd do it for more evil reasons. I don't want to have any sympathy for the character.

I'm probably going to get torn apart by some Star Wars fanatic here, but anyway...

The sexual tension between Luke and Leia in Episode IV and V seems kind of odd considering their brother/sister relationship was revealed in Episode III. It also proves that the prequels were a money-making afterthought for Lucas.

Ok, here's my 2 cents

Empire strikes back.
Return of the Jedi (would be 1, except for the ewoks)
Spaceballs
Episode III
would be 1 if
a. The love dialog wasn't poorly written and more forced.
b. The build up to Anikin's turn didn't lead to a anti-climatic-ho-hum "Eh, I'm evil now" event. All three movies were supost to lead up to this one point, and it ended up being the biggest let down of the series.
Star Wars
Howard the Duck
The other two in no order
would be watchable if
a. They used more models instead of all CGI
b. They would have had a 3rd grader check the scripts for a story
c. They would have took all creative control away from George Lukas
d. The two films were combined into one, with a story somewhere in there.

It was not interesting, but absolutely believable.

Excellent point here for those who are taking notes... If the prequels did one thing well, it was this. Obi-Wan, Yoda, they were all sure they understood Anakin's divine purpose, but despite their wisdom (or because of it) they failed to understand that he could go over to the dark side and still in the long run end up taking the emporor out... even after everyone except his son had given up on him. Very eastern, eh?
So while I still think the prequels aren't as good as the originals, they did a great job of fleshing out Vader's final decision to throw Palpatine down the Random Electricity Shaft Thingy. Karmic justice, a dish best served cold.

Good point. A minor beef, though, is that if you bother to watch the series in order (I to VI), the moments you'd expect to be given more impact in the original trilogy seem oddly muted compared to what happened in Ep. III. The first appearance of Vader in IV, the Vader/Obi-Wan rematch with Obi-Wan's death, the Vader/Luke duels, and Vader's redemption and death are all sort of graced over, compared to the intensity of his turn, the Obi-Wan duel, and his rebirth as Vader. As cool as the story line is, it's still very apparent that the scope of his character changed as Lucas went on, culminating at the climax of III. As much as people have bemoaned Lucas's tampering of the originals, I could almost go for further tinkering or even adding new material altogether to heighten the sense of drama to equal that of III's. Wow, I guess in some way I'm saying III *IS* the best. That's odd.

I've heard other people say that too, but I have to disagree. The series already has a 100% evil, no redemption possible, simply wants power and to destroy, type of villian, and that is Palpatine.

He is as evil as evil can be. Pure blackness all the way through. There is not 1 smidgen of a thing about him that can be looked on positively.

Why would you want the same qualities in another villian? It would be boring. That's is precisely why Vader needed that depth.

And its not like Vader wasn't already set up to be a sympathetic character in the OT. How often does Luke say "there is still good in him". That's sort of the whole point of that trilogy. Vader isn't 100% evil. There is conflict in him, and at the end of the day, the goodness of Anakin wins out, sacrifices himself, and saves his son. Luke was right, and Yoda, Obi Wan and the Emporer were all wrong. They looked at Vader in the same way you want to . . . and got pwned for it.

Vader's sacrifice in ROTJ a truly selfless act . . . the first from him that we have since . . . when? Giving Padme the jppor snippet in Episode I? Him wanting to fly in the podrace just to "help people"? After that, its all over. Everything he does has a selfish motive . . . even if he is doing good . . . and that's why the jppor snippet is featured so prominently in III.

Regardless of what the PT brought to the table, it didn't really change Vader's character at all. This stuff was already there . . . it was just fleshed out a bit more in I, II, and III.

I know Alan doesn't want me in this thread (he better stay out of that Steely Dan love-fest over on the music side) but this line did cause me to do a spit-take.